Coming Out as a Trans Woman at 45: The Filter That Changed Everything

Matt Gilhooly (00:00)
For about 35 years, Chloe did everything she could to be the person the world expected her to be. She played sports, climbed the career ladder, found her soulmate, and even with all of that, something was always missing. A kind of heaviness she couldn't name and couldn't shake. Then one afternoon on her lunch break, a silly face filter app changed everything.

Chloe is a writer and traveler who spent 45 years living as the person she thought she had to be before finally becoming who she actually is. Today she's sharing what it feels like to carry that weight for so long and what it felt like to finally let it go.

Chloe Kelly (00:34)
It feels very much like I'm not in prison. I don't have to live in that box. the male persona I created was almost like an Iron Man suit to keep me safe.

But

I ended up getting locked, like the little girl got locked inside that suit and the suit's protocol was to protect the girl

inside, but it was like completely out of control.

Matt Gilhooly (01:26)
Hello, everyone. Welcome to Life Shift Podcast. I'm here with Chloe. Hello, Chloe.

Chloe Kelly (01:31)
Hi, I, is that free to be here?

Matt Gilhooly (01:34)
Well, thank you for joining me on the other side of or in a different hemisphere.

Chloe Kelly (01:39)
Yeah, I'm calling from sunny today, Buenos Aires, although it's actually wintertime here at the moment, but you can

Matt Gilhooly (01:45)
Mm.

Chloe Kelly (01:45)
probably tell that I'm originally from the UK. I want to say reino unido because I've been working on my Spanish a lot. So I've been saying all day when people say, where are you from?

Matt Gilhooly (01:56)
I love that. And I, you know, before recording you mentioned how you are planning on kind of traveling all over and and working on a book and all sorts of fun things and living life as loudly as you can in all different places. And I love that. I feel like so many people that I know have dreamed about doing something like that, of being like a digital nomad kind of and just kind of traveling everywhere. But

as you were saying earlier, like it just seems like, it seems so impossible. Like how can I do that? Someone else could do that. I can't do that. And here you are doing it.

Chloe Kelly (02:32)
Well, that's exactly it. was always like I'd speak to people and say, my dream would be one day maybe I could. And then certain circumstances have come into play and I've just thought, you've just got to go for it. And I'm going for it. So I've got like a really tiny little bed set here in Buenos Aires. It's in a cool area, but I've got a bathroom.

a

tiny kitchen, the table I'm sat on, and my bed and I do have a balcony and that's it. So I've come from like a three bedroom house with a garage to one

Matt Gilhooly (03:03)
Yeah.

Chloe Kelly (03:05)
room.

Matt Gilhooly (03:06)
That's okay. You make it work. You're only there for three months.

Chloe Kelly (03:08)
That's it.

Matt Gilhooly (03:08)
You'll find something new and exciting in another three months. I love

Chloe Kelly (03:11)
That's it. It's cozy.

Matt Gilhooly (03:13)
yeah, exactly. There that's how we look at it. So before we get into your story, can you tell us who Chloe is in 2026? Like how do you show up in the world? How do you identify these days? And wherever you want to take that, go for it.

Chloe Kelly (03:25)
sure I have to think about these days how old I actually am. So I'm 48 years old and I am she her, I'm a woman but I'm actually transgender. So I've been living full-time as a woman for just over two years and as we've already touched upon at the moment I am

doing a lot of traveling and writing and just sort of trying different bits and bobs to try to keep my sort of nomad experience going and to share my story and hopefully inspire some other people out there.

Matt Gilhooly (03:58)
Yeah. Well, you know, it's interesting. I've heard so many different stories through this podcast and being able to listen to strangers all over the world about their stories. And it's it's very interesting to me how different parts of everyone's story affect other people. Like I sometimes I'm like, people are gonna really attach to that person's moment or like whatever. And I'll hear from them and they'll say, actually, when so and so said this.

Little tiny thing like three way three three quarters through the episode when they said this little throwaway phrase, that's what stuck with me. So it's it's beautiful the the power of storytelling. And it's not like we're like, hey, live my life, but like these are the things I feel as a human, and this is how I show up in the world as a human. And maybe other people are feeling like really alone in that circumstance, and maybe now they're like,

feel validated or feel like, I'm not the only one feeling this particular way. So I love that you're you're putting your story together, but you're also sharing your story as you go through the world.

Chloe Kelly (05:00)
Well, that's it. So, well,

being it's quite a revelation to realise that you're actually trans. And when you do kind of realise and you start looking, it's amazing how many people have got such similar stories that it's, you're like, well, I thought it was quite unique. But it's like, no, actually loads of people have got exactly the same story. But if you don't know there's other stories out there, it

Matt Gilhooly (05:23)
Yeah.

Chloe Kelly (05:24)
certainly helps, doesn't it?

Matt Gilhooly (05:26)
Yeah, and I think also too, any circumstance that we're going through, it's very easy to feel very alone in that circumstance.

Chloe Kelly (05:33)
Definitely.

Matt Gilhooly (05:34)
You know, like even as a well, my mom died when I was eight, and even though I knew I wasn't the only kid with a dead mom, I certainly felt like I was the only kid with

a dead

Chloe Kelly (05:45)
Yeah.

Matt Gilhooly (05:45)
mom. And so I can imagine, you know, in your circumstance when you kind of come to this realization really strongly, I guess.

It might feel very isolating. It might feel like you no one understands how you're feeling, but you're right. Like you reach out and you're like or you see other stories and you're like, maybe this isn't very

Chloe Kelly (06:02)
Yeah.

Matt Gilhooly (06:03)
unique. You're like maybe we're all just humans trying to do the best we can on this planet.

Chloe Kelly (06:08)
That's it. So like I remember like the first time I went dressed out femme, I was like, I spent ages getting ready. I'm absolutely petrified to walk outside. Within about five minutes, I realized nobody is paying me any attention whatsoever. So I feel relieved. And then like a couple of minutes later, I'm like, why is nobody noticing? I ages getting ready.

Matt Gilhooly (06:30)
And you know, I don't think that's unique to a trans experience though.

Chloe Kelly (06:34)
No!

Matt Gilhooly (06:35)
It's just a human experience.

Chloe Kelly (06:36)
Yeah, think you're absolutely right. Yeah, I think we're so wrapped up on what other people might think that it sometimes holds us back a lot.

Matt Gilhooly (06:44)
totally. totally.

Yeah, that's that's so many human experiences right there, just wrapped up. That's all we need to talk about today, right? No, but

Chloe Kelly (06:52)
That's it.

Matt Gilhooly (06:53)
I I I love to get more into your story and I know that we're gonna center around this kind of experience for you and and leaning into Chloe. And I'd love for you to paint the picture of like before this life shift moment that we're gonna talk about, and you can kind of

Paint the picture as far back as you need to go or to just give us some color and context to who you are.

Chloe Kelly (07:16)
Yes, I didn't realise I was trans until I was 45 years old, which might sound a bit bonkers to a lot of people. When I realised there were so many clues, it was pretty bleam and obvious. for 45, well, can't say 45, so maybe for the first 10 years of my life, I was just like a normal.

kid didn't really think too much about anything but then for about 35 years I tried so hard to be Mr Manly McManlinson so

you know try to be know the perfect son I tried to blend in tried to be perceived totally as masculine so nobody would have had any idea whatsoever that I was trans it's looking back

Matt Gilhooly (07:59)
Did you have

those feelings underneath though that you felt like you had to prove that?

Chloe Kelly (08:03)
So there's a few instances when I was really young. So like when I used to have to get my hair cut when I was about two or three years old, to scream

Matt Gilhooly (08:11)
Mm.

Chloe Kelly (08:11)
the barbershop down.

And I used to love wearing my mum's shoes apparently when I was like two or three years old in the cupboard. But both of those stories very quickly became stories that my family would use to sort of take them out of me. Like

Matt Gilhooly (08:25)
Mm.

Chloe Kelly (08:25)
sort of laugh. Anything that I did that was feminine was kind of, don't be a Jessie. Don't be, you know, like that. Anything that I did that was masculine was kind of rewarded with praise.

Matt Gilhooly (08:37)
Mm.

Chloe Kelly (08:38)
So I kind of learned to be a good boy.

Matt Gilhooly (08:42)
Yeah.

Chloe Kelly (08:43)
And then sort of towards the end of primary school into secondary school. So I don't know, the American school system confuses me a bit, but that's like 11 years old going into big school. At that point, anybody who was noticeably queer or other would definitely get picked on. So I learned at that point really to like squash any femininity exactly,

Matt Gilhooly (08:58)
Mm. Yeah. Perform. Mm-hmm.

Chloe Kelly (09:04)
performance exactly right. And what really helped me like.

I never understood rough and tumble. I never really understood any of that, but I understood the rules of sports because there are rules. So I kind of threw myself into playing soccer. I mean, I wasn't particularly brilliant at it or anything, but it was a way for me to have an identity as like a teenage boy because I knew what the rules were. And because I was okay at it, it stopped me from standing out, if that makes sense.

And then as I got older,

I learn, like if you can speak to girls, then that gets you more man points. If you can

drink 10 pints of beer and make an absolute idiot of yourself, that gives you more man points. So if you watch sports but can remember loads of facts, that gets you more man points. So I spent a lot.

Matt Gilhooly (09:56)
So you weren't really living,

you were you were living performing for someone else, masking.

Chloe Kelly (10:01)
Yes,

and I didn't know that till I was 45. I'm like struggling through all of this now. It's only in the last like 12 months or so.

Matt Gilhooly (10:04)
Got it. Okay. Yeah. So growing up it just felt

like this is what I have to do so that parents will accept it. So my family will will like me more. Not necessarily I need to hide something. It's more of like, I just want people to like me and I want to fit in and and this is how I have to do it.

Chloe Kelly (10:26)
100 % and of course I didn't realise I was performing. I thought

Matt Gilhooly (10:30)
Mm.

Chloe Kelly (10:30)
everybody felt like this. So I really, I just

wanted to be loved and I didn't want to stand out at all unless

it was, I was in control of it. was like telling a funny joke that I knew was going to be funny. I never

Matt Gilhooly (10:43)
Yeah.

Chloe Kelly (10:44)
wanted anybody to laugh at me without my consent, if that makes sense. But I guess, you know, like

Matt Gilhooly (10:48)
Yep, it does.

Chloe Kelly (10:49)
to get picked on, I never wanted to get hurt or bullied.

So like I also used to cross dress all the time as a teenager and I was so, so ashamed of that. I'd spend more time and attention putting everything away than I would do actually dressing. But it just made me feel like anytime I had the house to myself, that's what I would do. And it just made me feel,

Matt Gilhooly (11:10)
So just at home.

Chloe Kelly (11:11)
yeah, it just made me feel calm. And it

Matt Gilhooly (11:13)
Mm.

Chloe Kelly (11:14)
was talking like an 11 year old child doing this and it just made me feel, I just felt calm.

yeah, it's like one of the only few happy childhood memories. In retrospect, I've, I've got like the other things that I should have enjoyed, like playing football with my friends. I was just like so nervous beforehand about making mistakes or I just never, in retrospect, never really enjoyed it. I was always, it was just something that I had to do.

Yeah.

Matt Gilhooly (11:40)
It was like pressure. It was pressure

to be enough, maybe. Where your subconscious

Chloe Kelly (11:45)
Exactly.

Matt Gilhooly (11:46)
was like, people are not gonna think I'm enough. Which to be on I don't know what it was like in the UK, but I think in the ti I'm forty-five now, so same time period, and I think that way different than now. You know, there was a lot of clicks

Chloe Kelly (12:02)
big time.

Matt Gilhooly (12:03)
and a lot of like boys need to do this, like you were saying, get all your man points and like

Chloe Kelly (12:09)
Yeah

Matt Gilhooly (12:09)
if you

did anything that was not on that list, then people might bully you or whatever it may be. Hopefully things are different now, but I was it the same for you in the UK?

Chloe Kelly (12:20)
definitely. In the UK, there's... Well, there wasn't my time. I think it's still there, but it's very much a culture of banter or taking the mick. So, especially when you hung around this group of young boys, if anybody did anything embarrassing or daft, was like everybody's on them, like a of hyenas,

like laughing hysterically. Yes. I mean, looking back, yeah,

Matt Gilhooly (12:39)
Would you participate in that? In the bullying? Okay.

Chloe Kelly (12:45)
It's, you know, I don't feel proud of that. I feel quite ashamed. there's other things I did to fit in, like, you know, the way I used to talk to some girls kind of makes me cringe and feel so humiliated and embarrassed now, but it

Matt Gilhooly (12:57)
Yeah.

Chloe Kelly (12:58)
was seen as permissible and almost encouraged to act like that. So, yeah. Yeah.

Matt Gilhooly (13:02)
Yeah. You were a kid. You were a kid.

And, you know, hopefully even the other people that were also doing the bullying now in their forties feel a little shame about things they did. I think hopefully that's the normal path that we're all taking and not like

Chloe Kelly (13:17)
Yeah.

Matt Gilhooly (13:18)
I was such a good bully, you know, like I hopefully people aren't doing that.

Chloe Kelly (13:22)
It's not so much bullying in the UK. This is what you would do with your close friends.

Matt Gilhooly (13:26)
okay.

Chloe Kelly (13:26)
So if somebody like, you know, did something silly or whatever, everybody would rip into them. It's

Matt Gilhooly (13:33)
Yeah.

Chloe Kelly (13:33)
like they've done that and that would be like the joke of the day. you'd look, know, say, you know, best thing you can do is avoid making any faux pas or making a fool of yourself. Otherwise.

Matt Gilhooly (13:42)
Yeah. So you s

you were saying that you looking back now, maybe there weren't a lot of happy times growing up. Is that d did you feel that at the time, do you remember? Or like do you think you felt

Chloe Kelly (13:58)
Yeah.

Matt Gilhooly (13:59)
happy at the time or you felt like you were doing what everyone wanted you to do?

Chloe Kelly (14:03)
Well, I thought I was just a grumpy teenager, I was definitely very intense, very miserable, very angry and very sullen, very sulky. And it's, I've said this in quite a few places, like when I was younger, I used to go to bed and wish I could wake up as a girl. As I went through adolescence, it used to be that I'd go to bed and hope I wouldn't wake up the next day. So it was almost...

I

guess people who might be selling this tea, they just snap out of it. But I created this sort comfort blanket of wallowing in my sadness. And I never really understood why I was so sad. I always thought...

if I can do, if I can, so a lot of it to start with might be what my parents wanted, so if I can get good exam results, if I can go to uni, then it was for me if I could get a good job and earn some good money and then it was always if I can find true love then that will solve it and then if I can get a promotion or if I can save to retire.

then maybe I'll be happy. then, you know, up until like 45, my dream was to retire early and just nobody interact with me and leave me alone. So I was sort of gradually withdrawing.

Matt Gilhooly (15:12)
Yeah. I will tell you that experience is very similar to a lot of the conversations I have on this podcast. Mine included. I think the time period that we grew up was very much like this checklist. Like we were sold that if we do all those things that you just listed, like that is gonna bring happiness. And we

all checked the boxes and we're like, well, this one doesn't bring me happiness. Let me try the next one. Or like, what's next? What's next? Let me do them all and maybe I'll reach this nirvana that someone sold me.

Chloe Kelly (15:40)
Yeah.

Matt Gilhooly (15:41)
You know, so I think that's so common though. And and also to your point of like finding the comfort in sadness or depression or something. Like for me having, you know, I I famously say, not famously, I say that I failed grief for like 20 plus years because I really did I, in my opinion, I did. I pushed it down, pushed it away, made everything worse. But in those moments I was, you know, going through depression and things like that, it was so much easier to stay depressed.

than it was to do something else. So I totally resonate with that feeling of like it's comfortable. It's like a nice blanket to stay

Chloe Kelly (16:19)
Yeah.

Matt Gilhooly (16:20)
depressed, really, or sad.

Chloe Kelly (16:24)
Yeah, it was like my default. something bad happened, then it would be catastrophizing and

Matt Gilhooly (16:30)
Mm-hmm.

Chloe Kelly (16:31)
like, you know, this worst case scenario and well, I'm so unhappy anyway and what's the point and life's rubbish. don't even know why people like living. So I had quite a lot of suicidal thoughts as well.

Matt Gilhooly (16:42)
Mm. Yeah.

Well, I'm sorry that you had to go through that. I fortunately didn't have those pieces, but I I know very well how easy it was to just stay in it's so much harder to be happy. Like for me when I was in I was like it's just so much easier to stay depressed, you know,

Chloe Kelly (16:59)
Yeah.

Matt Gilhooly (16:59)
and feed those thoughts. It's so much easier to come by than they are the happy things. So yeah.

Chloe Kelly (17:05)
and it becomes

a bit chill as well.

Matt Gilhooly (17:06)
Exactly. And then it just gets worse and worse. And then you do it for 20 years in my case. And then you're like, well, now I gotta figure this out. So

yeah, it's

Chloe Kelly (17:13)
Totally.

Matt Gilhooly (17:14)
it's understandable though, like what you went through. And I don't know that it again, this whole idea of, my story's so unique. It's like I don't know that this these feelings are unique to your specific experience. I think like so many teenagers and boys that buy into the

the requirements of their gender at the time growing up. Like so many of us had to do things like that to just feel like we were boy enough for our fathers or, you know, like whatever it may be. So, you know, as

Chloe Kelly (17:47)
Yeah.

Matt Gilhooly (17:48)
unique it feels, I feel like there are so many people that can resonate with exactly with what you're saying. Yeah. So this just

Chloe Kelly (17:51)
can go through it. Well,

Matt Gilhooly (17:54)
continued.

Chloe Kelly (17:55)
yeah, I did find true love and I

Matt Gilhooly (17:58)
Okay.

Chloe Kelly (17:59)
got married in 2016. So absolutely wonderful woman and

You know when you're younger and you're like, well, how do you know if you're in love? And then people say, you'll know when you know. Well, I became one of those people because I knew when I knew. And my wife would often say to me,

I'm not enough for you, am I? Why are you not happy? Why

Matt Gilhooly (18:20)
Mm.

Chloe Kelly (18:20)
is this not enough? And that would be recurrent like every three, four months. And I didn't know. was like, you're everything I ever wanted. This house, you and me, it's everything I ever thought that I wanted. So it wasn't just like career achievements. It was actually having soulmate love. And

Matt Gilhooly (18:37)
Mm.

Chloe Kelly (18:37)
even that, that didn't fill this massive void in me.

And I didn't know what that void, I didn't even know there was a void, I just thought I was just bloody miserable.

Matt Gilhooly (18:46)
Yeah. Hmm.

So you knew you were in love, but also feeling miserable still? Like does any of that go away?

Chloe Kelly (18:54)
Yeah,

it would be almost cyclical. you know, like what we already said, became habitual. So if I had a few knocks about something or other, it just be like, blah, blah, life's rubbish. What's the point? It's like the Peter Green, Fleetwood Maxxon man of the world. There's nobody I'd rather be. I just wish I'd never been born. That's

Matt Gilhooly (19:12)
Mm.

Chloe Kelly (19:12)
pretty much how I felt as an adult male.

And it's like, just didn't see why people wanted to live. It just seemed...

It was almost like I was in prison and it just felt so,

Matt Gilhooly (19:22)
Mm.

Chloe Kelly (19:23)
even though I had like a lovely house, good job, nice holidays and this beautiful, amazing, kind, caring, wonderful partner, it was just like, is a bit SHIT.

Matt Gilhooly (19:34)
Mm.

Chloe Kelly (19:34)
I'd liken it to be, like watching the television and there's nothing on and I just want to switch it off. That's how it kind of felt. That was my sort of suicidal thinking.

Matt Gilhooly (19:40)
Yeah. Yeah.

And so interesting too because you say clearly that you found that soulmate love and even with that it doesn't kind of d dampen or do anything to that other part.

Chloe Kelly (19:57)
I mean, don't get me wrong, like on holidays or whatever, was like, really, I was like smiling and happy and yeah, we had loads of brilliant times, but it was just that constant,

Matt Gilhooly (20:06)
Yeah.

Chloe Kelly (20:07)
like, I've stolen this from somebody else, but like another trans person says like a dripping tap

Matt Gilhooly (20:12)
Mm.

Chloe Kelly (20:13)
of like, that's not quite right and you just, cannot turn that tap off. just won't bloody go away. Like a leak, just like a constant

Matt Gilhooly (20:18)
Like a leak of some sort. Yeah.

Chloe Kelly (20:21)
leak and it's like, that just bleeds out.

Matt Gilhooly (20:24)
Hm. Yeah.

Chloe Kelly (20:24)
happiness and you're like.

Matt Gilhooly (20:27)
Yeah. Also too, I think there's that expectation of like once you find all those, like we said, once you find all those things, I should be happy. So then there's

Chloe Kelly (20:34)
That's it, that's why I was

desperate for retirement. I thought if I could retire, people would leave me

alone and I'll be happy.

Matt Gilhooly (20:38)
Yeah. Yeah, but you probably

you know, y if if all things stayed the same and you retired you probably wouldn't be happy.

Chloe Kelly (20:46)
I think I would have just become like a hermit. I think I would have just

Matt Gilhooly (20:48)
Right.

Chloe Kelly (20:49)
shrunk, just watched TV and got drunk on wine every weekend. I probably would have

Matt Gilhooly (20:51)
Yeah. Yeah. What?

Chloe Kelly (20:53)
started bleeding into weekdays.

Matt Gilhooly (20:55)
Yeah. Yeah. It's har it's I mean, I'm sorry that you felt like that for so long 'cause it's it's exhausting. Well, and it's exhausting too. And I think, you know,

Chloe Kelly (21:02)
It does sound quite gloomy, doesn't it? Yeah, it is.

Matt Gilhooly (21:06)
it I think people listening will understand that it wasn't like every waking second you were miserable, like you had good times, you had

Chloe Kelly (21:16)
Yeah.

Matt Gilhooly (21:16)
you had you enjoyed parts of your life, I'm sure.

Chloe Kelly (21:20)
Definitely.

Matt Gilhooly (21:20)
It's just

like this this feeling behind everything is like heavy.

Chloe Kelly (21:26)
Yeah, heavy is a really good description and of course you can only experience the world as yourself so you don't know if this is what everybody

Matt Gilhooly (21:34)
Yeah.

Chloe Kelly (21:35)
feels like.

Matt Gilhooly (21:36)
Had you ever talked to anyone? Like

Chloe Kelly (21:38)
Not about being trans.

Matt Gilhooly (21:40)
But about how you were feeling or suicidal ideation, okay.

Chloe Kelly (21:42)
yeah, like, yeah,

I'd often say to my wife that I felt really sad or what's the point, what's the point of living. I'd often say that type of stuff.

Matt Gilhooly (21:49)
Yeah. But not professionally

to anyone, like a therapist of any sort.

Chloe Kelly (21:53)
Well,

I once mentioned it to a GP, a general practitioner, a UK doctor, family doctor, when I was probably about 25 and they just told me to read a book. They wrote down a psychiatrist book or something. that was it.

Matt Gilhooly (22:06)
That's very helpful. Mm-hmm.

Chloe Kelly (22:08)
Yeah, that was as close as I ever got to speaking to somebody about it.

Matt Gilhooly (22:11)
Yeah.

Yeah, I don't know if it would have helped. You know, I don't well, the book, that's just dumb. You should have found a different one if you were, you know, if you were able to find a different person, I think maybe find the right person. It took me five people to find someone that could that I could feel right with to

Chloe Kelly (22:27)
Yeah.

Matt Gilhooly (22:28)
help me get through that that blockage of the grief and all that that that stuff. But, you know, I think also if you're hiding well, did you know you were hiding

Any part like if you had gone to a therapist, would you have been able to tell the truth? Or the truth as you know it?

Chloe Kelly (22:44)
That's a really good question.

So.

I cross-dressed up until I was about 20 because I'm a bit daft. I didn't realize I could buy my own clothes. I only used to wear my mum and my sister's clothes at home. And I never thought in a million years I would ever be able to buy any or I would be too frightened to buy any. And then this is round about, so I was 20 in 1998. So the internet's kicking off. So then I was just able to research trans everything all

the time. And that was sort of how it leaked out for me. So I was

became almost like an encyclopaedic knowledge of like every trans person who ever lived.

And then later on I'd watch before and after videos and I didn't even used to watch

Matt Gilhooly (23:20)
Okay.

Chloe Kelly (23:21)
like voice training videos and stuff like that. So like I'm a 40 year old man watching trans voice training videos. It's like, but I was so ashamed of all that. It'd be like history, delete, delete, delete

Matt Gilhooly (23:30)
Okay.

Chloe Kelly (23:31)
all of that. But I had this shame that I looked at these things. Like it was the wrong thing that I was looking at this or that I even knew about this. So I was always paranoid about somebody finding out.

And

if I was like on a night out and masculinity was questioned, I would fly off the handle. So I don't know. I was so protective of that male ego that I don't know if a therapist would be able to peel it open or not. But you need to peel it up to fix the girl inside. That's the problem.

Matt Gilhooly (24:05)
Yeah.

Yeah. No, because I think there that is something that people will find a therapist and they'll tell part of the story. And

Chloe Kelly (24:15)
Yeah.

Matt Gilhooly (24:15)
telling part of the story may help a little bit, but I don't think if you weren't able to fully open all of that to someone yet, I don't know that it would be place. Unless maybe you found someone that was trans and you were able to talk to someone with a little bit more comfort, but then maybe you would have had a shame

because you went to someone, you know, like that you found a trans therapist. You know, like who knows? But a lot of it is so interesting.

Chloe Kelly (24:40)
Well, because it didn't transition to much later in my life, I've used the word grief map to describe the way I feel about not coming out sooner or realizing sooner, but I don't know if that's the correct use of the word. but I, so I'm like, so

Matt Gilhooly (24:53)
Of course. Yeah, it's grief. You grieve the life that you maybe could have led.

Chloe Kelly (24:59)
exactly. So there'd be times I like long train journeys or car journeys where I daydream about.

transitioning, even though I didn't realise I was trans at this point, which sounds absolutely crazy. like almost you saying if I'd found a therapist for a long, like early on in my transition, I would have hung on to that. I would have really thought, if only I'd found one and maybe I would have opened up and maybe, but I'm kind of over that a little bit now. But yeah, like 12, 18 months

Matt Gilhooly (25:22)
Hmm. Yeah. Well,

Chloe Kelly (25:26)
ago.

Matt Gilhooly (25:26)
you can't nothing you can do about it unless you have a time machine or something that you could figure out. And that would I mean you'd be super rich and then be able to really retire if you had a time machine. There you go.

Chloe Kelly (25:36)
Well, I'm working on it in my tiny little room here in Bonnet Harris to get the spanners on the floor.

Matt Gilhooly (25:42)
No, I I mean it's it's interesting. Like you said, it sounds bonkers. I don't think it sounds bonk I don't know what word you use. It doesn't sound silly that you would do all this research.

you would, you know, kind of think about it, but also not fully realize

that that was your story. You were just interested in that story. Would you say that's true?

Chloe Kelly (26:04)
Yeah, it was almost like a hyper focus. yeah,

Matt Gilhooly (26:07)
Okay.

Chloe Kelly (26:07)
yeah. once.

Matt Gilhooly (26:08)
Were you looking for

signs, do you think, that you weren't trans, like subconsciously?

Chloe Kelly (26:13)
I don't think... I was always envious of the trans and when I saw it I'd like, wouldn't it be great to be like that? But it's still... I just... I think the male ego that I had created wouldn't let me believe that I could be like that. It was almost like that's a trans person and they are different to me. I am...

I don't even know what word cis meant. I'm a normal person. Trans people are really cool. I wish I could be one, but I'm definitely not because I would know. And then,

Matt Gilhooly (26:41)
Mm.

Chloe Kelly (26:42)
of course, when you see

Women in particular, because I'm a trans woman, who are really a feminine at age four or five, know, femme boys or whatever, who then come to realise that they're trans. It's like, well, that's obvious. But like I'd spent so long, like trying to play sport, trying to blend in as a boy, trying to masculine in the workplace. I was like, well, I'm not like that. I'm not trans.

Matt Gilhooly (27:07)
So it's not me.

Chloe Kelly (27:08)
But then when I transition later in life, there's so many...

trans women who were exactly the same. I mean they married a trans woman who served like in the military and things like that and they've taken it to way more extremes. Bodybuilding, like getting really jacked,

Matt Gilhooly (27:20)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Chloe Kelly (27:22)
you know, hells angels and all sorts just to prove how masculine they are because I did write something and I kind of feel maybe I was better at playing a boy than maybe there's more affirming that trans women were

at a younger time because they got, in my school, would have got beaten up severely

Matt Gilhooly (27:42)
Right.

Chloe Kelly (27:42)
and I'm pretty sure at four or five they would have been desperate to have played the part of a boy so they didn't get beaten up but maybe they

weren't as good at playing that part as I was perhaps so it's almost

Matt Gilhooly (27:53)
Yeah.

Chloe Kelly (27:54)
like they had a pretty horrific childhood but got to transition early I got to avoid mostly getting beaten up but then lost decades because I'd

tricked everybody, including myself.

Matt Gilhooly (28:07)
Yeah. know, you hear that story and I could ag I could agree with you and say, yeah, you know, this, that, and the other. But also like, aren't you finding in your forties that like things kind of make more sense? You have the wherewithal to like piece things together and like it just feels like maybe this is a richer experience because of all that other piece. But we totally skipped your life shift moment, but you know, like

Chloe Kelly (28:34)
you sound like

it.

Matt Gilhooly (28:35)
But you know, like it I think there's something to be said about having the mind you have now and the heart you have now to be able to kind of lean into like fully embrace who you really are and always have been.

Chloe Kelly (28:48)
Yeah,

I think that's definitely true. Like I read, I don't know if it's like a fortune cookie type of advice, but was, if you could have, you would have. So it's almost like,

Matt Gilhooly (28:58)
Hm. Fair.

Chloe Kelly (29:00)
yeah, the best time to have transition would have been like at three years old. The next best time was when I did because

Matt Gilhooly (29:05)
Yeah.

Chloe Kelly (29:06)
I was economically stable. I had a relationship that was stable. And I had the strength to do it.

And maybe I might not have been able to do it at age 29 or 39. that would have just been because it's bloody hard. Transition is hard. It's definitely worth it. Any Trans people watching,

Matt Gilhooly (29:26)
Right.

Chloe Kelly (29:26)
but it's not easy.

Matt Gilhooly (29:28)
Yeah. Well, and again, the parallels in a story for me is like, yeah, I wish at eight I could have grieved right away. You know, like found the tools, but nobody had So I had to do what I had to do to protect myself, just like you had to do what you did to protect yourself in whatever way. And when I was in my thirties, that's when I was able to start doing the darn thing. And it made it all worth it.

So it feels very parallel to your experience as a human. The feelings are very much the same of like, do we wish we could have done something we like your point. We if you could have, you would have, you know, like

Chloe Kelly (30:07)
You were deaf.

Matt Gilhooly (30:08)
and I couldn't have. So but but tell us lead us to that life shift moment because we've kind of dabbled in both sides right now. But

Chloe Kelly (30:15)
Yeah.

Matt Gilhooly (30:15)
I'd love to hear like what what was that trigger for you?

Chloe Kelly (30:19)
It was a set moment that triggered the whole thing.

Matt Gilhooly (30:22)
Yeah, I love it. Yeah.

Chloe Kelly (30:25)
So, yeah, so picture this, like I'm 45 years old, aging, middle-aged male, short hair, still

Matt Gilhooly (30:32)
Still married?

Chloe Kelly (30:34)
married, in my workplace, on my lunch break. I only used have to go in the office two days a week because I work from home. And it was on my lunch break in the office. So I'm on the internet eating my lunch and...

there was a article in the paper and it had what would football players look like as the other gender and they had this face app where they'd change genders and I was like downloading that right away and back in 2000 I remember the Science Museum in London had a gender change thing I remember advertising the tube and I went all the way there with a girlfriend at the time to do it

and I looked like Super Mario Brothers. It was like 2000 technology. It just didn't. It was like... So I was expecting the same type of crap. So I pressed the button and there was the female representation of me that I could still see it was me, but female. And it was like, you know, in Jaws when Spielberg does that sort of zoom in and then pulls the thing away, like... It felt...

like that, like blood rushed to my face. It was like, and I went into the cubicles in the toilet and work and did it like about and put more and more photos in it. Must have done it at least 50 times. And I was like,

But I didn't realize I was trans at that point. I just kept on doing this all the time for days and it was all I could think about. And then the picture wasn't enough. It would be like, right, so I need to try to make the clothes look better. So I would use AI for that.

But then the hands didn't look quite right and the feet looked bad. So I found myself driving home from the office and pulled into a big shopping mall, trying on gold high heels. And I'm like, what the hell? I like I'd not cross-dressed in. So I was like 20 years old. I'm like, what the hell are you doing? I bought false nails. And I was like, what is going on? And I was like unable to sleep. It was really like, it was racing through my mind. And then two.

Three weeks into this, I was like, could I be trans? Because the picture is like, this is me and this is who I want to be. This is me. And it was like so unnerving and so unsettling.

Matt Gilhooly (32:45)
Mm.

Chloe Kelly (32:46)
I'm getting heart palpitations thinking about it and then I started doing online quizzes which don't really help but then started finding

Matt Gilhooly (32:53)
Yeah.

Chloe Kelly (32:54)
on Reddit little articles or the gender dysphoria bible for any trans people watching this is a really good resource and a lot of the stuff it was saying really spoke to me it was like that sounds so much like me and

Matt Gilhooly (33:07)
Mm-hmm.

Chloe Kelly (33:08)
then I would say maybe four weeks after the FaceApp I was like

Yeah, I am trans. I'm bloody trans. Shit. So then I wanted to action. Big time. Big time. When people say it's a...

Matt Gilhooly (33:20)
There was a fear to that? Was there a fear to that? Okay. So it wasn't a relief,

it was it was still fear.

Chloe Kelly (33:28)
It was big time fear. It was like, want so much to be this person, but I don't like anything like that. And it's going to completely and utterly blow up my whole life. But it's like, so then my infinite wisdom, I thought, well, I need to try hormones.

just to check that it feels okay. Like I'll know then if it feels right. So I called my GP. I went down to my GP's because it's quite hard to get an appointment in the UK and say it was a mental health issue. So my GP called me that day and I told her and it was the first person I'd ever told and I cried my eyes out. I sobbed and I sobbed and I sobbed and I definitely felt the release. felt, I wouldn't say it felt good but it definitely felt like some of the pressure had been released.

So she put me on the NHS waiting list, is extraordinarily long for trans people, but that's another debate. But she told me at the end, it would be like a good two years before I even got to see somebody about even starting hormone therapy. So then at that point, I started researching private options. So I researched the private options and made some appointments. And I'd say, so it was kind of start of October when I did the...

FaceApp, it was kind of end of October when I called the GP and then by the end of November I told my wife and she knew I'd been acting weird for weeks and she thought it was going to be another episode of What's the Point? Life's Rubbish, I hate it, she thought it was another one of those episodes. But I told her and the thing is when I was telling her I knew that I couldn't put the genie back in the bottle once I told her.

Matt Gilhooly (34:57)
Mm-hmm.

Chloe Kelly (34:57)
My original

plan was going to be I was going to try the hormone, see how I felt and if it worked and I'd tell her maybe sometime in February, March time. But it was like, she was like, what is going on? what is wrong? Why? You know, and she didn't really want to ask me because she was just expecting me to do the usual. I'm so unhappy, life's rubbish. What's the point? But she just kind of felt she needed to pop the Bista. So was the life shift moment, but.

When I told her, I didn't know if she would throw me out of my home, whether she'd laugh at me, whether she'd slap me. I didn't, I just didn't know how she was going to take it. so it was,

Matt Gilhooly (35:31)
Yeah. How did she take it?

Chloe Kelly (35:35)
she was shocked, like massively shocked and she was kind. She

Matt Gilhooly (35:38)
Right. Hmm.

Chloe Kelly (35:40)
was really kind. it was very much in sickness and in health type of thing. It's like, I'm going to stand by you, make sure you're okay. And we'll work through this together.

Matt Gilhooly (35:49)
Wow. I mean that's all you can ask for almost, you know, like I've yeah. So

Chloe Kelly (35:53)
I told you it was true love.

Matt Gilhooly (35:57)
would you say I mean I it feels like little little trigger points, but was the biggest release valve telling her?

Chloe Kelly (36:04)
The biggest release file, so seeing the face app is what set the ball rolling. The biggest release file was telling my doctor, because

Matt Gilhooly (36:10)
Yeah. Hmm.

Chloe Kelly (36:12)
that was telling the human being. And when I tell my wife, that was the point where I was letting the genie out. Like the doctor wasn't going to tell anybody. But as soon as I tell

Matt Gilhooly (36:23)
Yeah.

Chloe Kelly (36:23)
my wife, there was no going back. Like the male ego that I'd created, that

Matt Gilhooly (36:27)
Right.

Chloe Kelly (36:28)
persona.

Even if I changed my mind, that persona would be forever changed as far as I was concerned by telling my wife. So that

Matt Gilhooly (36:32)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Chloe Kelly (36:35)
was the most, yeah, that was probably the most significant moment. But in the background, I'd already made appointments for private

Matt Gilhooly (36:41)
Yeah.

Chloe Kelly (36:42)
evaluations and things.

Matt Gilhooly (36:44)
But you told someone that you love that maybe yeah,

Chloe Kelly (36:48)
meant everything to me.

Matt Gilhooly (36:50)
and also I'm sure not true or not, you still built things to satisfy the male peace, even with your wife and other people in your life. Is that true?

Chloe Kelly (37:04)
Sorry, Michael, could you rephrase that?

Matt Gilhooly (37:06)
Yeah, yeah.

I mean, you were saying like you would show up a certain way at work. I'm sure there were things that you did to or I shouldn't say I'm sure, were there things that you did to quote unquote show your wife how manly you were or how, you know, your male male ego was fully intact?

Chloe Kelly (37:23)
Yeah, my whole persona was all about the male ego. Like I

Matt Gilhooly (37:25)
Okay. Yeah, so

Chloe Kelly (37:27)
wasn't like going around like drinking beer and scratching myself and burping all the time or anything, I was like, you know,

Matt Gilhooly (37:32)
Why not? You could still do that. Do whatever you want. It's your life.

Chloe Kelly (37:37)
it's true. It's like trans women can burp. So yeah, it was all very much to protect. And it was for me as well. was like the person that I...

thought I should be or thought I wanted to be. And

Matt Gilhooly (37:51)
Yeah.

Chloe Kelly (37:51)
I tried so hard over so many years. So to transition to be who I really am, I had to destroy the persona that I'd built before. And not telling my wife was probably the first step of doing that because in my mind telling the GP and even starting on hormone treatment wasn't destroying that persona. It was telling the one person who meant more to me in the world than anybody else.

Matt Gilhooly (38:14)
You're right.

Chloe Kelly (38:16)
That was the no turning back point.

Matt Gilhooly (38:19)
Yeah. I mean, but I'm glad you did, 'cause I mean, it feels like one, just I think there's power in story and letting it out. Like you said it w the first time it was like

Chloe Kelly (38:31)
time.

Matt Gilhooly (38:31)
a release valve, but I bet this felt even more freeing and like, Well, nothing I can do about now. I just told you, right? Like and now I can move forward

Chloe Kelly (38:38)
Yeah. It's...

Matt Gilhooly (38:40)
with it. And if I wanna change my mind, I can change my mind.

Chloe Kelly (38:42)
That's it. it's like, as I said, like I was so ashamed of cross-dressing. I was like kind of ashamed of having this interest in trans people. But the more people I told, this shameful secret I'd had my whole life just completely started losing power. And it was like the one thing I probably was most anxious about ever that people would find out the secret. And as soon as I started telling people and releasing it, was taking shackles off it. felt bloody brilliant.

Matt Gilhooly (39:09)
Yeah.

Did you did you encounter in this journey? I mean, I'm s you took the steps to move forward in this journey. Did you encounter people that really surprised you or didn't show up in the way that you th you thought they might?

Chloe Kelly (39:25)
Everybody that I told was okay with it and in a lot of instances were more than okay with it. Like they were really good. Like my work at the time, they were so, so lovely about it. Like they, they were the ones who encouraged me to come out sooner. And they were, they were like, because I explained to my, I told my HR, then I told my boss and then we told the managing director and

But like I was saying to the manager director, like I was presenting this female at home, but would come into the office dressed as a boy. And I said, but every time I was going home, I was feeling so depressed, but I wanted to give the hormones a full year coming out. And he was like, I do not want you coming into this workplace and being so sad. He was

Matt Gilhooly (40:07)
Mm.

Chloe Kelly (40:07)
like.

I'll make sure everybody's okay with it. Just come in and be you. So I ended up coming out to work in August 2024, which so I found out in October 23, I started hormones January 2024 and I came out and started living full time from August 2024. So there was kindness like that.

My older male friends also thought they were okay, but they've kind of just drifted away, which is just fine with me really because I don't really know what to talk to them about, truth be told. It's,

Matt Gilhooly (40:36)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Chloe Kelly (40:39)
you know, and now I've got like a lot of female friendships with what were probably more like female acquaintances before.

but they've become friends because

Matt Gilhooly (40:47)
Mm-hmm.

Chloe Kelly (40:48)
I'm able to be myself, we're able to chat and it's so lovely.

Matt Gilhooly (40:52)
Yeah.

Chloe Kelly (40:52)
It feels so normal. Like when I used to have to hang out with boys, it was like, I used to just have to get absolutely drunk as a skunk. I was just anxious all the time because I didn't really know what to do.

Matt Gilhooly (41:03)
Yeah. Am I saying the right thing?

Chloe Kelly (41:05)
Yeah, but now with the girls, it's just like, I'm just one of the girls and it just feels natural and it's fun. It's like genuinely belly laughs fun. It's just, it's lovely.

Matt Gilhooly (41:14)
Yeah.

Do you feel lighter? Not physically, but just like moving through the world, you don't have to show up a certain way.

Chloe Kelly (41:22)
Yeah, it's like my journey since that. just feel so, the main thing I feel is relief.

Matt Gilhooly (41:30)
Mm-hmm.

Chloe Kelly (41:31)
It feels very much like I'm not in prison. I don't have to live in that box. almost said that the male persona I created was almost like an Iron Man suit to keep me safe.

But

I ended up getting locked, like the little girl got locked inside that suit and the suit's protocol was to protect the girl

inside, but it was like completely out of control. Like as in the girl was just getting crushed. but now I feel relieved and I live with joy. Like I don't

have to be miserable anymore. when I meditated and realized that I

don't

have to go to that default sadness and I'm not waiting for X, Y and Z to be happy, I'm actually happy now. I cried happy tears for ages and I felt so light afterwards and

Matt Gilhooly (42:16)
Mm.

Chloe Kelly (42:17)
yeah, I even got joy tattooed on my back, a tramp stamp in Buenos Aires like two weeks ago, so that's how much of a cliche I am.

Matt Gilhooly (42:27)
Hey, do you? No rules, right? Like I mean, you had rules

Chloe Kelly (42:30)
you

Matt Gilhooly (42:32)
for forty five years. Now you can now you

Chloe Kelly (42:34)
very much so.

Matt Gilhooly (42:35)
can make your own rules that align. And do you feel like you are? Okay, good.

Chloe Kelly (42:39)
And I do.

Definitely that's like the whole sort of traveling around the world and things like that. It's to break the big rule for me, the big thing I was so ashamed of to break that open, breaking other rules feel small time versus that big one.

say that to start with, it kind of felt easy to break that one and then try to build everything as close to how it was before. But just with me as a woman.

It felt better, but I felt like if you've done this, swing for the fences, go for it. You know, it's hard, so live life as much as you can. And especially because it feels like I've wasted so much time.

living

as somebody else or as the person society wanted me to be that now, like I've said before, like I want to walk into lampposts because I'm too busy like looking open-mouthed at the wonder and beauty of the world and I am sickeningly annoyingly happy. It's like

yeah.

Matt Gilhooly (43:38)
That's good.

So you were saying that you tried to kind of just, you know, Chloe your way into your existing life. What did you determine you didn't need as part of that anymore?

Chloe Kelly (43:53)
I don't quite the right word to say this, but

Matt Gilhooly (43:55)
Okay.

Chloe Kelly (43:56)
the things that didn't fit, it's like I realised through transition that I'm attracted to men. So that's really quite a hard thing to kind of deal with as well. So having to deal with and that impacted my marriage because...

Both of us were attracted to Mento. My wife no longer found me physically attractive and she was grieving the life she was expecting to have and the person she thought she was going to grow old with. So we're best friends, we're like sisters now, but it was like we both need to be the female in the relationship. We both need that element

Matt Gilhooly (44:37)
Yeah. Yeah.

Chloe Kelly (44:38)
in romance anyway. So that was quite hard. So that kind of...

losing my marito it kind of feels unfair but then maybe it's unfair that i've been this lucky that i found a soulmate love but i couldn't be fully happy with her but i get to be me but i don't get to have that soulmate love

Matt Gilhooly (44:56)
Yeah. Or

you just haven't found Chloe's soulmate love.

Chloe Kelly (45:00)
Yeah, I'm not holding out much hope on that regard. Yeah, there is joy. That's it.

Matt Gilhooly (45:05)
Come on, you said you're happy and there's joy, so you're manifesting. You're you're manifesting people in your life.

Chloe Kelly (45:12)
And I don't need a man to make me happy. It would be nice though.

Matt Gilhooly (45:15)
No. Which is a big thing for

for most people to realize is that like first we gotta find happiness within ourselves. Otherwise

Chloe Kelly (45:23)
Yeah, totally.

Matt Gilhooly (45:25)
you live like how you felt, even though you loved your wife, you hated a lot of parts of your own life or the way you felt.

Chloe Kelly (45:33)
But I hated myself.

Matt Gilhooly (45:35)
Yeah. Well, that's a big part of your own life. Yeah.

Chloe Kelly (45:37)
Yeah, that's true.

Matt Gilhooly (45:40)
no, but you know, like it's great to find that self love because it

for the first forty five years you didn't have a lot of it.

Chloe Kelly (45:49)
No, and then through transition as well, it was like, I wish I wasn't trans. It's not fair that I'm trans. It's so hard being trans. The world hates us. And I had a lot of

Matt Gilhooly (45:59)
Mm-hmm.

Chloe Kelly (46:00)
internalized transphobia as well. Growing up, when we grew up through the 80s and 90s, it was like...

trans

women were either blokes in a dress who everybody laughed at or they were on like the Jerry Springer show. Guess what? I'm really a guy like shock tricking straight

Matt Gilhooly (46:14)
Right. Right.

Chloe Kelly (46:15)
men. And that was the whole thing, the crying game, bombing

Matt Gilhooly (46:17)
Yeah.

Chloe Kelly (46:18)
in the toilet. So it was all like this sort of disgust and shame. So was like, why do I have to be trans? I wish I wasn't trans, but

Matt Gilhooly (46:25)
Yeah.

Chloe Kelly (46:26)
it's just learning to love myself and get into that point. it's, you know, it's really odd, but you can get through it.

and I got through

Matt Gilhooly (46:35)
Yeah.

Chloe Kelly (46:35)
it and now I'm immensely proud to be trans but it is hard and I wish the world was kinder to us it's like you know

Matt Gilhooly (46:43)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, we shouldn't sugarcoat

'cause I think it's not like you transition and all of a sudden life is sunshine and rainbows 'cause there's still a bunch of jerk faces in the world.

Chloe Kelly (46:54)
big time and it's what people don't realise is that trans people are born trans. It's like you don't choose it as a lifestyle choice. Most like me included spend a lot of our life choosing not to transition, trying our best not to be trans.

But it's the same as being left handed or being gay or whatever, you're born that way, you cannot change it. And when you're trans, you are born trans and the only way, not the only way,

The

one way that makes a lot of trans people happy is to transition and for me that certainly has alleviated all of the sadness I had before but you don't choose it and I think if people realise it wasn't just like some sort of fetish or a choice or you're doing it for shits and giggles that they might actually be more sympathetic.

Matt Gilhooly (47:40)
I don't think anyone would.

Chloe Kelly (47:43)
you don't see the comments I get online they're like this is a fetish you're just...

Matt Gilhooly (47:47)
No, I'm saying I don't

think anyone would choose to to

Chloe Kelly (47:50)
sorry, yeah, exactly.

Matt Gilhooly (47:52)
go through the process, to go through the emotions, all the tell the world. I don't think anyone would choose it knowing how the world reacts. They would choose

Chloe Kelly (48:02)
Exactly.

Matt Gilhooly (48:03)
it because they f they need it.

Chloe Kelly (48:05)
Because they have to, yeah.

Matt Gilhooly (48:06)
Right. But they wouldn't choose it like just for fun. Like it's not like a yeah,

Chloe Kelly (48:10)
Exactly.

Matt Gilhooly (48:11)
it's not like, I'm gonna get my hair colored today.

Chloe Kelly (48:14)
Is

Matt Gilhooly (48:14)
It's like

I'm going to be me today and I want

Chloe Kelly (48:17)
Yeah.

Matt Gilhooly (48:18)
to show up in the world that way. Yeah, I I it's it makes no sen I mean, it's all fear based, it's all fear b made up fear based of of religious things and people don't realize that we're all a bunch of humans trying our best.

Chloe Kelly (48:36)
Yeah, that's it. like,

yeah, I it's almost unusual. I mean, they reckon there's maybe about 0.5 to 1 % of the world's population are trans. But it's still for people who aren't trans, it's like such a head scratcher that it's probably quite easy for people to...

blow it up in the media and make it sound more

outrageous. So it's quite easy to stoke people up who perhaps

don't know too much about it. And then once you can use that, that's your smoke and mirrors where you can carry on getting the money and the power.

Matt Gilhooly (49:11)
Yeah. Are you finding your journey? Is this your first part of your journey or you've gone a couple a couple other places? to no, in Argentina. I'm sorry. Your travel

Chloe Kelly (49:18)
Say, do mean like medic lane?

Matt Gilhooly (49:24)
journey. I don't need to know your details.

Chloe Kelly (49:26)
Yeah. So yeah, gave up work last

Matt Gilhooly (49:30)
Okay.

Chloe Kelly (49:30)
year. that was again, we sort of backtrack. of last year, was well, my company was so good, but I was like, I just don't, I enjoyed it more than I thought. I was sad because I hated my job or work, not my job that I hated working, but I didn't actually mind it that much once I transitioned. I felt quite happy, but I was like, I just felt like I was wasting away or I was wasting my time.

It

was like, why am I doing this? So I handed my notice in. I was like, what are you doing? I wasn't really sure what I was gonna do. wrote a book, a trans romance, like a rom-com.

I've sent it to a lot of literary agents. Most of them have ignored me. And then I went traveling in September last year on my own. So and that's what the book I'm writing about now is about. It's a solo travel adventures of a 40 something year old trans woman. So I went traveling around Europe. did 18 cities in 21 days by train. So that was a sort of warmup. I call that the sort of appetizer. I went

Matt Gilhooly (50:29)
Yeah. Yeah.

Chloe Kelly (50:31)
home for six days and I flew to Istanbul and then I went to Armenia, Georgia.

Azerbaijan Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, Kazakhstan and then flew home for Christmas and on January 1st I flew to Taipei and I went Taipei, Japan

South Korea, Vietnam top to bottom, Bangkok and then home so that was about four weeks so all in all over three months I was traveling for about nine ten weeks so it's like the first time I was experiencing boys it was traveling on my own as a woman it was traveling in non-queer friendly places as a queer person so and it's not I went

Matt Gilhooly (51:09)
That was really where

my question was coming from is like how are you finding going through the world

Chloe Kelly (51:13)
Yeah.

Matt Gilhooly (51:14)
as Chloe now

Chloe Kelly (51:16)
It's,

Matt Gilhooly (51:16)
in this journey?

Chloe Kelly (51:17)
I had a great time. I

Matt Gilhooly (51:19)
Okay.

Chloe Kelly (51:19)
enjoyed it. but the thing is, like, I think I pass most of the time. And I'm very lucky in that regard, but as a trans person, you don't know that you pass unless you say, like, that questionnaire. Did you know that that woman who walked in here was trans? So unless, like, you hand that questionnaire, so you've got no idea what the people are thinking. So yeah.

Matt Gilhooly (51:37)
I don't think we're doing that. Nobody's doing the survey monkey

there.

Chloe Kelly (51:40)
I know but like as a trans person you're like do they know and like it's like especially when you're dating boys as well so I put on my profiles to start with I was trans but all the male attention I was getting was very unpleasant it was all

Matt Gilhooly (51:53)
Mm.

Chloe Kelly (51:54)
very much you're trans I want to collect the unicorn and I'm just going to disrespect you and want to have sex with you so I removed the trans part from my profile I still get that occasionally because

Boys can be boys sometimes, but I've met lots of really nice guys. So it's, when you go through transition, it's almost like you're going through a second puberty as well. So

I might be 40, I was 47 when I was traveling. I might be 47, but I've actually sort of got like...

the emotions of like a 14 year old. So it's like ups and downs. It's like, so

Matt Gilhooly (52:25)
I'm sorry.

Chloe Kelly (52:28)
like I like, you know, like I kissed a boy by the Caspian Sea and that was brilliant. And then like, you know, the next day I was like flying to Uzbekistan and I was seeing like the Samurakand and the old Silk Road. So that was like really moving, like the history. So it's not so much about I saw this, I saw that it's more.

my stupidity or my daftness and the funny things that happen to me and the realizations I have. So like today I was writing about my time in Almaty which is really cool place in Kazakhstan and spoiler alert in Istanbul I ended up snogging her on a date with a professional footballer and in Kazakhstan

I'd met a couple of other boys and I thought I was the bee's niece. I thought I got this crack. I'm brilliant. So you can see in the book as my ego is growing and I was in this single, sorry, segregated spa in the former Soviet Union. And I'd been to two Habams in Turkey and certain things happened in the spa.

with like my massage time getting lost, me becoming a bit petulant and being a bit of an idiot drawing eyes to me that then somebody must have complained or clocked me and then the manager's in with me in the sauna fully dressed while I'm like pretty much naked apart from...

briefs on and then they like I don't realize I think they're talking about my miss massage I'm like just leave I don't want the massage now but then it occurs to me then they say we want to see your passport that they've clocked me and all this like

Matt Gilhooly (53:59)
Mm.

Chloe Kelly (53:59)
identity and strength I had feeling like I'm living fully as a woman just came crashing down and I

Matt Gilhooly (54:05)
Yeah.

Chloe Kelly (54:06)
pretty much ran out of there I like spent the afternoon crying and I was like I made myself go for a meal that night but I was like really shaky and nervous and

like my whole self-perception collapsed in an afternoon. it's,

Matt Gilhooly (54:19)
Mm-hmm.

Chloe Kelly (54:19)
yeah, I wrote about that again yesterday. So I was actually really sad writing about that yesterday.

Matt Gilhooly (54:24)
Yeah.

Well I think it's the important parts to tell, you know.

Chloe Kelly (54:28)
Yeah, and that's

the story. It's not like I went here and I saw that and I'm like brilliant. It was like,

Matt Gilhooly (54:32)
Yeah.

Chloe Kelly (54:32)
I've got a bit big for my boots. My bubble's been pursed and now I feel really bad.

Matt Gilhooly (54:38)
Yeah. Well and well I'm sorry that you feel bad, but you probably also have learned a few things through this journey and a l few things about yourself and things you want to do more of

Chloe Kelly (54:48)
Definitely.

Matt Gilhooly (54:49)
and do less of and that's cool. Like it's it's it probably feels like I just keep thinking about how structured you had to live your life before and how now you have the freedom that you allow yourself. Like

You can do whatever you want within reason. Sounds like you're going a lot of places, so there's at least that.

Chloe Kelly (55:12)
Yeah, it's that's a really good way of putting it on that because I always thought I had to play by the rules to live by the rules. I had to live as a boy. I had to do these things. And even after I first transitioned, was like I still I thought I still had to like have a good job and earn a salary. But it's realizing that you don't have to live by those rules. The most important thing really, I think, is to be happy and to be kind.

I

think those are the two things that I strive to live with joy and with kindness. And think if you do those, you can't go far wrong. And life is short.

Matt Gilhooly (55:48)
I I love it.

It sure is. I I I do love I love that and I love that for you 'cause it's it's so important and it's a lesson that a lot of people don't really learn until they're older and realize, this is my life. I can do it the way

Chloe Kelly (56:04)
Yeah.

Matt Gilhooly (56:04)
I want to. And so many of us have just been following whatever the rules we just assumed were the rules as we

Chloe Kelly (56:11)
Yeah.

Matt Gilhooly (56:11)
as we grew up. So thinking of you now as you travel through the world, like

If you could run into yourself a couple of days before you found that like FaceTune app, is there anything that you would wanna say to them?

Chloe Kelly (56:25)
You know what, I was actually thinking about this earlier, weirdly.

Matt Gilhooly (56:28)
You're welcome.

Chloe Kelly (56:29)
Yeah, I'd like to give him a big old hug.

I think he, they, whatever would be really, really shocked. Like it would, like I probably wouldn't even say that I'm really me, if that makes sense, because it

might spin them out way too much.

But it was just...

Yeah, I just like to, like, as a trans person, you do have a relationship with who you used to be. Like, to start with, I was really unkind to who I used to be. I was like, you flippin' idiot,

you've held me back. But now it's like, no, that person kept me safe and tried their hardest and, you they did the hard yard so I can now live.

So it's almost like I want to give them a hug.

I wouldn't tell them they'd lose their salt mate over it because they'd then probably try to kill me.

Matt Gilhooly (57:17)
Mm, yeah. Well, hopefully it wasn't a murderous version of you before. Yeah.

Chloe Kelly (57:23)
Yeah, just sad. They were just gonna wallow.

Matt Gilhooly (57:28)
No, I I mean I think obviously we can't do any of these things, but so many people will not tell any that version of themselves anything besides either it's gonna be okay because we often feel like it's not, and or just give them a hug or a pat on the back,

or you know, or some just

Give them kindness, you know, in some way.

Chloe Kelly (57:47)
And the funny thing is,

if you had asked me that question two years ago, I would have said, I would have bloody shaken him and said, call your GP now, we all know you're

Matt Gilhooly (57:53)
Mm.

Chloe Kelly (57:54)
trans, bloody get on with it. But later it's taken me a couple

Matt Gilhooly (57:58)
Yeah.

Chloe Kelly (57:58)
of years to get that perspective and that kindness.

Matt Gilhooly (58:02)
It's probably pretty exciting to think about like three years from now, all the perspective and all the things that you'll have about your life. kind of

fun.

Chloe Kelly (58:12)
Yeah,

well there's like I've read trans women have been in transition for like five, six, seven years and they're like they get to a point where they even forget they're trans. I'm like what? Does that really happen? So yeah, that would be good.

Matt Gilhooly (58:24)
I

love it. Well, I appreciate you having this conversation. I was gonna say going on this journey, but I think it was just a real human to human conversation and I think it's so important. We just need to have more of these conversations and that's what I try to do on the show. So I'm the lucky one here, but hopefully you're having these conversations with other people because there were so many parallels to our lives, despite

Chloe Kelly (58:47)
Yeah.

Matt Gilhooly (58:47)
mine being about a death and yours being about finding your true self and living your true self.

Chloe Kelly (58:54)
And that's it.

Matt Gilhooly (58:54)
So thank you.

Chloe Kelly (58:55)
That's kind of, know, not only have I transitioned, but I've also got out of the sort of corporate rap race as well. So hopefully things that people can take, not just the trans experience, it's the actual waking up and being your true self. And you don't have to change gender to do that.

Matt Gilhooly (59:09)
Yeah. Listen, I don't think your story is I

don't think your story is is that much. I mean, from the outside it it's not that much of a trans story. It really is truly like living yourself and like

Chloe Kelly (59:24)
Yeah.

Matt Gilhooly (59:25)
finding self love and self confidence and all the pieces so that you can do that instead of assuming what you think everyone else needs to see from you.

Chloe Kelly (59:36)
exactly and it's living with joy rather than living with bloody misery and it feels

Matt Gilhooly (59:41)
Hmm, fair. Yeah.

Chloe Kelly (59:42)
so much better.

Matt Gilhooly (59:43)
So if people want to like connect with you, follow your journey, get the book when you're done with this version of your book or when one of those agents picks up your book, like what's the best way to find Chloe and get in your space?

Chloe Kelly (59:57)
It's quite frustrating because as a trans person you pick your name which is like a bit of a bit of an odd thing. But I tried the name Lucy to start with so my social media handles are under Lucy C Kelly so I'm on Insta as Lucy S EE K EE double L Y and but my YouTube channel is girl colon avanting so girl avanting so all of those daft journeys I'm talking about I'm writing about.

There's loads of episodes

Matt Gilhooly (1:00:22)
Awesome.

Chloe Kelly (1:00:22)
on there. If you watch all of them in a row, then yeah, I'll talk you off the edge because that's... yes, please.

Matt Gilhooly (1:00:26)
You get the full picture. Well, we'll we'll put the links in the show notes and and

make sure people can connect with you. I also just really love to encourage anyone listening that sees themselves in your story or feels like part of their story is validated because of what they heard or feels less alone to reach out to you and just share their part of their story with you because you know what it feels like to release that pressure valve. You know?

Chloe Kelly (1:00:54)
it and

I'm hoping to just maybe go into coaching at some point in the next couple of years or whatever so hopefully I can give back from what I've learned and if I can help other people,

Matt Gilhooly (1:01:05)
Well you are.

Chloe Kelly (1:01:06)
well thanks Matt, that means a lot.

Matt Gilhooly (1:01:09)
Well, I mean, you are.

You are, because the more we share our stories and share different elements of our stories, the more we realize that we have w way more in common than you know, like I

Chloe Kelly (1:01:20)
Yeah.

Matt Gilhooly (1:01:23)
I keep going back to it, but like the parallels that I saw in just our hour long conversation of like how I felt through my life and different different aspects of it, very similar to yours. And so like

The more we share our stories, the more we're connecting and helping other people and that ripple effect and all the things that come with

Chloe Kelly (1:01:41)
That's beautiful. It's making me tear up here.

Matt Gilhooly (1:01:42)
Well, I didn't

I didn't plan it. so anyway, I wanna say thank you and I encourage people to reach out to you and, you know, follow your journey, but also connect with you and and share parts of their journey maybe that that they felt more alive because they heard yours. So thanks again for being a part of this.

Chloe Kelly (1:02:03)
Yeah, that would be lovely. Thanks for having me on.

Matt Gilhooly (1:02:06)
Of course. And thank you all for listening and

I still don't know how to end these episodes. So I'm just gonna say goodbye and I'll be back in a couple of days with a new episode. Thanks again, Chloe.

Chloe Kelly (1:02:15)
Thanks.