Liberation in Divorce: Story of Healing and Growth Inspires Others to Overcome Adversity | Olivia Dreizen Howell

00:00
And also I really knew my kids deserved a life that didn't include walking on eggshells all the time. And they deserved a mother that could show up for them. I mean, Matt, I have letters I wrote to my sons apologizing for the things I had to do to survive at that time. And I was so scared that something would happen to me and they wouldn't know that I believed in them.

00:26
or that I thought that they were okay to be themselves, or that they could be whoever they wanted to be. And it's heartbreaking thinking back to that person, right? Like I was living in fear all of the time and didn't realize it. On this week's episode, I speak with my friend Olivia. Olivia Dreisenhowell is the sister of guests that we had on a few weeks ago.

00:53
but she has been a great friend on Twitter and in the podcasting space. And I had the opportunity to record with them for a future episode of their podcast, A Fresh Story. But Olivia came on to talk about her journey, essentially, to the life shift in her life that led her to her divorce and liberation in a way of a life of which she tried to...

01:22
find a way to be a certain person for someone that only wanted a certain type of person. She wasn't quite that and she was trying to fit herself into that mold, if you will. This is a really interesting conversation that I think a lot of people will relate to. But what's so great about it is what came after. So much of the LifeShift Podcast episodes, we really try to focus on...

01:49
these pivotal moments and how they've changed us, and maybe even how we're grateful for some really tough moments in our lives. And I think that you'll find Olivia's conversation to have those elements of gratefulness despite the journey. And in this moment, it actually created the business idea of her company Fresh Starts Registry, which is a registry for people that are starting anew.

02:18
And that could be in a divorce. It could be in any kind of new beginning, some kind of graduation or anything. But celebrating these moments and creating a space for people to not have shame in some of these moments that I think that society has placed some shame on. So I really appreciate Olivia and her willingness to be open and vulnerable in this story about her journey to that point.

02:46
Before we start the episode, I just wanted to thank some of the Patreon supporters. And so as you know, the LifeShift podcast has a Patreon. We are growing steadily. We are growing in a way that is just I'm so grateful for. We have just about 27 Patreon members. And for some of you, that might seem like a really small number. But for an indie podcaster, that just means so much. And so what I try to do beyond early episode releases,

03:16
bonus episodes with former guests. But also every time five more people join the Patreon, so when we hit 30 people, I do a random drawing and give away a T-shirt, one of the T-shirts that I've designed for the Life Shift podcast. So if any of that sounds interesting, please come on over and join at patreon.com forward slash the Life Shift podcast, the information's in the show notes.

03:40
But before we get started, I wanted to shout out four people that are supporting one episode a month of the Lifeshift Podcast. And that is a particular tier there. So thank you to Brian and Sari and my friend Nick and my other brand new Patreon supporter, Gail. So thank you all for supporting this particular episode here in August. I really appreciate it and I don't take it for granted, so thank you so much. And with that being said...

04:09
I am happy to introduce you to my friend Olivia and our conversation on the LifeShift podcast.

04:34
Hello, my friends. Welcome to the LifeShift Podcast. I am here with someone that I'm going to call my Twitter bestie, Olivia. Yes. And I'm sure other people call you that as well. So welcome to the LifeShift Podcast. Hi, Matt. I'm so, so excited to be here with you today. So we met using a podcast tool, I will say, a review tool, that I don't know if is still around as much as it was. You're the best thing I got out of that.

05:05
I hear you. And you know, so then we connected through our podcasting and then I was just at the time kind of diving into Twitter and it was just like kind of my first foray. So like you were honestly, probably my first Twitter friend. And now I feel like we just talk all day. We talk all day just about podcasting about life about Twitter besties. Yeah, I love it. Pocket pals. That sounds

05:33
like something else, but thank you for that name. Okay. So we've been talking about this for a while. I think I had to pester you to get you to come on, not because you didn't want to, but because you are a woman of no sleep and 5,000 projects and amazing things that will get into kind of where life brought you to this point, but you're super, I mean, I don't know how you do it. I think you might be a robot.

06:02
I don't know how I do it either, Matt. I really don't. I'm going to be honest with you, but I am thrilled we found the time, though this is my, I had to cancel the first time because I had a kid that was sick. Although no, to be fair, the school sent him home and he was not sick, but this is great. I'm, I blocked the whole day just to chat with you. Well, for listeners, this will not be a full day episode, so don't worry too much. Yeah, sorry. I'm going to have to cut you off at some point.

06:30
But seriously, from afar, I don't know you very well. I had the opportunity to be a part of your podcast, A Fresh Story, and got to share something that I really haven't shared too publicly before. And we had a lovely conversation in which I had the ability to make you and your sister cry. So that was a nice aspect. But I'm just very inspired by...

06:56
your work ethic and the things that you do to make your dreams and other people's dreams come true. And I think today's conversation will kind of explain why you do that. I appreciate that. And I receive that compliment. And I think so much of what I do and I put into the world is to show people that if I could do this, you can do this. Because as we'll talk about today, I was not this person.

07:23
You know, I, let me put it this way. I was this person, but I was not in the circumstances that allowed me to be who I am. And I think so many of us, I mean, you know, from your story too, right? Like you feel like you get to a certain place and you're like, well, if I can make it, then somebody else can make it. And so that's why I'm really open with sharing my story. And your story is not, no offense here, not that unique, right? In the sense that this is something that

07:52
we should be sharing. Man, we're really teasing this one. We should be sharing these stories, and we should be sharing the positives that can come from something that seems on the surface, or to some people seems on the surface, to be devastating, to be life-altering, to be unsurmountable in some cases when you're in that moment. So to your point, having people come on and share stories like you're going to share.

08:21
I think it's important and that's kind of the reason that that I do what I do, why you do what you do, you know, and and I'm so grateful that you take the time to do this. So thank you. Thank you. And ditto. I mean, it's so important because life is just a string of shifts, right? It's all just different shifts. And it's how we move into that second shift or third shift or fourth that dictates the next journey. Right. And so I have always been fascinated with people and humanity.

08:51
My dream podcast is a podcast that literally just interviews every single person on the planet about what who they are. I want to just know who you are. Like you know everybody has a story. Everybody came from somewhere. And so I love what you're doing and giving people a chance to just share their story and their moments because people want to talk about themselves and share. They do and they don't. It's so interesting and at some point we'll get into your story. But I think that

09:20
much of our generation, because we're very similar in age, much of our generation was almost trained to be performative in a sense that, you know, we can only show the successes. We can only show the pretty parts. We can only show what we won and our promotions and those things. So, I say, yes, we want to share our stories, but I think a lot of people are afraid to still. They're so afraid, Matt. They're so afraid.

09:48
They're afraid, they're afraid of societal pressure. And a lot of people our age are still really afraid of their parents. And they're afraid of letting down their parents in some cases. And I was telling someone else this when I shared my story on the life shift with my friend Kristen and kind of flipped the script a little bit. It was really the first time that I had told my story from this point, the shift, this point.

10:17
and kind of where I was. And what that afforded me was the ability for my dad to listen to it without interjecting, without any kind of pausing the conversation or taking it another way, which is unique because I think a lot of times when we're in conversations with people, we only talk about little segments. And those other people that had the same experience living alongside you.

10:44
probably saw it differently. And so if you're having this conversation back and forth, I think it's a little different than being able to hear someone else tell that story. It was amazing, because after that, my dad and I had a wonderful conversation about what he didn't know and how I felt and how he felt and how we were really, truly doing the best we knew how to do at the time. So in any case, let's.

11:11
Let's have you paint the picture of what your life was like leading up to this pivotal moment, this specific thing that kind of created this new version of Olivia, or exposed this version of Olivia more to the world. I was, was about, well, let's see, my pivotal moment was four years ago in April. And, you know, leading up to that, I am a mom. I have, I, at the time, my kids were two and...

11:40
five or almost five and I was married to a guy that I had met online. We met on match.com and that was in 2011. We got married. We met in 2009. We moved in with each other very quickly after three months, which I do not recommend. I will tell the story and then I'll go backwards because there was red flags, right?

12:08
And we got married in 2011, had my first son in 2013. You know, we owned a house, we lived on Long Island. We kind of, from the outsider's perspective, had a normal suburban life. I had been a teacher for a decade before my first son was born. I went back to work after four months. My son was born in August. I went back to work in November. I worked at a wonderful...

12:33
little private school that I had also gone to as a student. So I was very devoted to the school. Absolutely, absolutely loved teaching, loved my students. I still keep in touch with so many of them. But, you know, doing the working mom thing outside of the house was really tricky for me. My ex-husband is an engineer and he's a musician. So, you know, he had full hours. So I went back to teaching quickly realized that that that was not going to work for me.

13:01
And kind of again made this big life shift to freelancing as a writer, which is something I've always wanted to do and kind of, you know, the universe conspired to give me a few freelance gigs. And then I started a social media agency just for my kitchen table. This was before Instagram even existed. So I would, you know, be a full-time mom all day. My son would come with me. I did have a lot of local clients here on Long Island. He would come with me to the...

13:29
clients, you know, stores and we would take pictures and I'd post and all the stuff. Still keep in touch with a lot of those clients. And over the years, the social media agency grew and grew and grew. We became a global agency. I have an incredible work ethic. I am also a super connector. So what ended up happening was that over the years, people would pull me into projects, amazing projects. I worked on television shows. I worked with Katie Couric. I worked.

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with a ton of different people because I'm a nice person. People like working with me. I showed up. I did the work. I love social media. I'm always iterating on how we could use it. I love media and people. So we bought this house. We had a second son. Again, everything was kind of like going along. On top of all that though, there's an old adage about if you put a frog in a pot of cold water and then you slowly turn the water up and turn the water up.

14:25
I was doing everything. So by everything, I mean everything. So I was raising the kids. I was working by myself. At the time, I had nobody else working with me at the agency. And I was doing three meals a day, all the laundry, all the cleaning, all the everything, all the bill paying. They say with emotional abuse, it starts before you realize. And so looking back, it started on the first date.

14:54
But it doesn't start as emotional abuse, right? It starts as like little comments, right? Like, I don't know if I would have worn that or I don't know if that's not a good idea or is this or that, right? And, you know, I was a really good wife. I was a really fucking good wife. I, you know, prepared everything. Clothes were always washed. Food was always on the table. I handled all the emotional and mental labor.

15:22
handled all the family stuff. My ex was a musician and he was in multiple bands, always making sure that he had everything he needed and that the show could go on. And even, you know me, I was looking for gigs for them. I was doing everything I could. Through the years, it just got worse and worse, but I didn't realize. I didn't realize.

15:48
I talk to people about this a lot, especially we talk about our generation. Did you feel like you were pressured into kind of this, I call it a checklist life, that you had to do your job, get a good job, graduate high school, do this, get a job, get married, have kids, move to the suburbs, buy a house, own a business? Did you feel that you were kind of following a...

16:18
guideline of some sort? You know, I love this question. I, and this is probably no surprise to anybody that knows me, I've always been a really good girl. I've worked really hard. Now I know I have ADHD, very bad ADHD. I always worked extremely hard. I was an A plus student.

16:40
You know, right before I met my ex-husband, I had gotten, I was in a relationship in my early 20s for a long time with a wonderful person. We're still very close. It just wasn't my person. And I got out of that relationship and I literally was like, you know, I was living in my parents' house. I'm like, just got my teaching job. I was 22. It was like the prime of my life, right? I was in the perfect shape of my life. I was dancing, I was running, I was dating.

17:08
And I said, I don't want to settle down with anybody for a long time. I'm so happy. I ended up dating another teacher at the school, which was a huge mistake. Nobody should ever do that. Then he left the school and I broke up with him. And again, I said, I'm not going to, I'm good. At this point I was 23. I was like, I'm so young, right? When I met my ex, he very much wanted to move quickly. Right. So even on the first date, it was like, you know,

17:37
kind of what's the plan of the first date, right? It was like, what's the plan? He didn't live near where I lived. And so he decided very quickly to move to where I was kind of on. He decided. Right. And so then it was like, OK, well, I guess we're moving in together. Now, that being said, I did. I was madly in love. Right. I was like, well, this is my person like this is. And, you know, they say with people like that, if you've ever seen frozen.

18:06
and you see Hans, right, and Anna, right? They fall in love with each other and it's like they're mirroring each other, right? Because he copies everything she does. And so it felt like this was like destiny, right? I finally meeting my person. Now, in terms of your checklist, I did know I always wanted to have kids. I did want to be a wife. I didn't know what any of that meant, right? In your early 20s, you're like, what does that mean?

18:33
I remember before I met my ex saying, I want to marry a half Jewish guy because I'm Jewish-ish. I mean, I'm Jewish, but it wasn't raised religious. But I did know what the family ethos was in Jewish families. And I wanted some of that. So he was half Jewish. I was like, this is perfect, right? This is my person. He played bluegrass music, which I love. And I actually...

18:59
strangely enough came from a family that had bluegrass musicians. And so everything seemed to be just perfect. Right. And let me tell you listeners, when things are perfect, they are not. And so I really tried. You know, I really tried. You know, it just started the happening that I started breaking down. Right. I was I was slowly my soul was dying inside. And I'm a

19:28
I'm a pretty optimistic, light, Pisces, dancing through life type person. And I was kind of told that I wasn't. And my dancing was mocked. And every time I tried to do something, it was not the right thing. And I was completely burned out. I don't know how I survived those years. I was so tired.

19:57
And you know, it's interesting what stood out to me when you said, people that know me will know this. I've always been a good girl. And in my mind, what that means is you've always followed the rules. You've always tried to make someone else happy before yourself, even though you had that happiness within you, others were supportive of it, but you always wanted to- Major people pleaser, major people pleaser. You know- And so it makes sense that you would, that you-

20:24
I don't think you're the only one that's ever gone down this road where you're like, well, if I just continue doing XYZ, they'll be happy with me. Or like, okay, so they said something against me, let me fix that. So I think there's this, like you said, the frog in the water, kind of the slowly boil. Yeah, 100%. I mean, I'm the oldest daughter, come from a family of divorce. I've always kind of taken care of people.

20:51
major, major people pleaser, right? And I'm an extremely empathetic person, right? So if I, and I also read energy, right? So if I walk into the room and I can see somebody's energy is even a decimal off, I have to try to fix it, right? I have to make the whole room better. And my ex-husband had a really great way of being a chaos person in a lot of ways. And so I was constantly.

21:15
spinning, right, to try to fix the situation, right? There was always something that was going on that I had to fix. And so, you know, leading up to this pivotal kind of like life shift moment, I knew things weren't good in the marriage, right? They weren't good. This was not the life. I kept thinking to myself, this isn't the life I thought I was gonna have. Like, this really isn't. And I was almost like, I would look at myself, like from a movie perspective and go like, is this me?

21:45
This is the life. Like, I know I'm better than this. Like, I know I'm destined for more. And also, I really knew my kids deserved a life that didn't include walking on eggshells all the time. And they deserved a mother that could show up for them. I mean, Matt, I have letters I wrote to my sons apologizing for the things I had to do to survive at that time. You know? And I was so scared that something would happen to me.

22:13
and they wouldn't know that I believed in them or that I thought that they were okay to be themselves or that they could be whoever they wanted to be. And it's heartbreaking thinking back to that person, right? Like I was living in fear all of the time and didn't realize it. Yeah, and it was manifesting in this, did you like lead into a depression type feel or was it?

22:41
Yeah, that's a great question. I was binge eating a lot. So I've always had disordered eating, always, but I was binge eating a lot. I have a heart condition, so it wasn't really super healthy for me to be doing that. The other kind of interesting thing that happened was when my younger son was still a baby, because he was still in his crib, I was walking outside holding him and I fell and I broke my toe.

23:07
But I broke my toe in a way that I couldn't walk on my foot for three months. Now, if you are a parent of two little kids and you break your foot, it's really bad. And actually this happens, again, much more than we realize. Parents break their feet a lot because they're racing around or falling a lot with the kids. And, you know, you look back and you're like, why did this happen to me? I know exactly why that happened to me, because I ended up doing everything on one foot. I was still doing everything.

23:37
And even things like the laundry was in the basement. I had to figure out how to get it done. Now I was married. I had a partner. And so I had to get a laundry service I paid for. Now at the time I was not making a lot of money. My agency didn't really return a huge investment until very recently, right? A couple, just a couple of years ago, I was paying, I was paying for preschool, kids clothes, kids, everything. And then had to, and then.

24:06
needed to get the laundry done because people needed clothes, right? I had a peg leg for three months, an iWalk, which is by the way, the best thing that I ever invested in. My parents lived about 15 minutes away. My stepdad, who came into my life when I was 10 and is the best grandfather, like on the planet to my boys, did all the school drop-offs and pickups, speech class drop-offs and pickups. My mom would come over and make food.

24:35
My sister, obviously, who is a huge part of my life, was there all the time. Again, I was married. I was married. Was there ever, in this marriage, just to give more picture, were there conversations about, hey, I need your help, or were you in a space where you were too afraid to ask? I mean, that's a really good question. I don't think, I think I was afraid.

25:02
But I also think I was very open. I would break down, right? So I would literally, he would see me literally spinning, right? I would be like, I'm doing everything. I can't do this anymore. I don't know what to do. And it was like, well, well, you know, figure it out type of situation, right? So I got to a point where I was afraid to ask. And also my parents didn't know the extent of it.

25:26
People didn't know, and I didn't really understand the extent of it, right? Well, I think it's common. I think there are people that are in relationships that want the partner to understand, and sometimes we're too afraid to ask. Oh, I was definitely afraid. I mean, Matt, I didn't say no to anything with him, right? And so what ended up happening was I was doing the binge eating, I was binge eating a lot. Now that you say it, probably I was very depressed.

25:54
I was also not sleeping, right? Because I had two little kids. I was the one getting up every single time they needed anything. My younger son was with me all the time. So I did have a babysitter that I paid for who would come maybe a couple hours a week for me to work. Otherwise I was working with him by my side, running, I mean, we were doing social media for tons of clients. I mean, I was doing global social media for global food brands with my kid on my lap, right? And...

26:23
So I would work at night. I'd put them to bed and I would work until two or three o'clock in the morning. Then I'd get up at six with the kids and I would start all over again. I truly don't know how I survived. And so kind of like a couple of things leading up to that pivotal moment. So in March of 2019, I decided to get therapy. Now I've been in therapy like different times in my life, but I said, you know, the therapy was really for the binge eating.

26:54
And I connected with a therapist who I knew from Instagram. And I just sense exactly. So me is on brand for me. And she was in Colorado. I'm in New York. So it was virtual. It was, I'm going to be honest, cheaper. I had no money at the time, like no money because I was afraid to ask for help from my ex-husband who was an engineer. We started talking the first therapy session, which was like probably March.

27:19
24th, 25th, she said, no, I was a writer, right? So I was writing for a lot of outlets and I was going to write for the therapist about our time together as an exchange for the therapy sessions. They weren't really therapy. She's a therapist, but we called it coaching at the time. So I was gonna write about my Benjidian because if you know me, I've been on the, I literally have been on the internet since it existed. And I've always been very open with everything.

27:48
And so my therapist, Christine, she said, does your husband read your writing? And I said, no. And she said, is that because he doesn't want to or because you don't want him to? And I said, well, I don't want him to, right? I was afraid. So that was kind of like one of those like, bing, like, okay, something's not right here. Do you think you were afraid because you didn't want the judgment? Yeah, because there had been judgment in the past, right? There had been, and so I stopped asking him to write.

28:17
to read anything. And then a couple other times I remember being out with my parents and I, you know, at times had to ask my parents for financial help because I wasn't, I was afraid, I was afraid, right? Like I didn't. And so I was out with my stepdad and my mom. We were at Costco and I remember this, it was Christmas time right before this all happened. And I said, I was kind of honest with them for the first time because at Costco you can say anything you want, right? And...

28:46
Can you? Is that a thing? Apparently it's a thing. I made it a thing. And I remember my kids were in the shopping cart, you know, in the front of the cart. And my stepdad is pushing them on my mom's shopping. And I kind of was lagging behind them. And I said to them something like, I don't know. Like, I don't know if I want to get divorced, but something's not really working. And I kind of just like said it out loud. And then, like, I didn't know if they even internalized it.

29:15
Later on I found out that my stepdad later said to my mom, like, Olivia wants to get divorced. And my mom was like, what? And he's like, she just said it. Like, she just admitted it to us. But I didn't, you know, so I remember being like, you know, the showers, like my quiet time, because I don't have anything else in there. A couple of times I remember showering thinking, well, I'm just gonna wait. I'm just gonna wait till my kids are older. I'm just gonna.

29:41
I'm just going to try to make as much money as I can. And I remember conversations I had with my ex that basically said, like, I said, like, well, I'm just going to focus on me and the kids and get us mentally okay, because I didn't know what else to do. I felt like I was failing at everything else. I couldn't be the wife he needed. He really wanted a very different lifestyle. And he was miserable where we were and made it very clear that this was not.

30:10
what he wanted in life. And, you know, so I kind of put all these pieces together and then April is tax season. I was doing our taxes and I, for the first time, made about $60,000 a year as a freelancer, which is a huge amount of money. And we had to pay taxes on it. And I think it was the first time that it was like a realization that I was making money.

30:40
It was an interesting moment because I think that like, you know, there was definitely financial abuse and I think that like something must have gone off kind of, you know, in, I don't know exactly, you know, what he was thinking, obviously it's my story, but it coincided with all of this. Right. And so I always think that there has to have been something that kind of was like played into that.

31:05
Like she has a power that I that he didn't like that. I kind of have this power that he didn't realize I had. Yeah. And also led to be honest to like that I was making. And now, again, sixty thousand dollars is not a huge amount of money, but I was making that money working from home with two kids doing everything else. Right. And so it was like not only is she making this money, but she's actually doing everything. And I remember asking some friends to like.

31:32
Facebook mom groups and be like does anybody else do everything in their life and people were like, what do you mean? I'm like like everything and they were like well doesn't your act doesn't your husband, you know, like Do this this is no. Well, doesn't he do this is it? No, you know, I'm like I mean like Everything and I remember my therapist at the time was like don't you think I'd be easier to be a single mom and I was like Yeah

32:00
And then like, I knew I had, I mean, I'm very, very grateful. I had family. So I knew that like, if God forbid, like shit hit the fan, I could move back home, right? Like it was like with my kids, like which ended up happening for other reasons, as life is. April comes around. We went to New York City with the kids. We went to a children's museum, which if you have children, you know that like anything with kids is not fun. Not fun, it's hard work.

32:28
and taking two little boys on the train and then the subway, and then you get to the museum and then they're tired and done, they don't even wanna do anything. And, you know, family stuff, nobody's actually having fun. I really tried, right? I was trying to be this person that he wanted me to be that was doing different things and getting out of the box and having this great life. Meanwhile, I was exhausted, right? And so we had this day in the city with the kids and I remember coming home so proud. I was like, I did it. And we were together.

32:58
Whatever. And I'm like, that was a good day. And he was like, and I'm like, I just put so much effort into this day. Right. So a week later, we ish now he was he was playing a lot of music in New York City. And, you know, he was doing a lot of shows. And so it was a lot of weekends with me and the kids by ourselves in the house. And I remember kind of looking at these weekends with excitement and thinking like, oh, life.

33:28
Life could be like this, right? Like life could be like watching movies and eating Chinese food and laughing, right? And like enjoying like my quiet time and like, you know, it's almost like, and I know you probably understand this, like you see almost like a sliding doors, right? You're like, huh. And I guess this is what manifestation is a little bit, right? It's like, you see like another life. You're like,

33:55
I see through this veil that life could be like this. Like, interesting. On April 14th, I remember there was some stuff that was said to me that was very sketchy. And I was like, this can't be happening. Like it was just weird, like some weird conversation between my ex and I. And so I remember I was like, I'm gonna go for a walk and we...

34:24
And he is like, well, I'm going to come too. And then the kids, of course, had to come because I could never be by myself. And it was raining and we walked up to the playground and I was just in this total days of like, what am I going to do with my life? And he was like, you're being so quiet. Why are you being so quiet? And I was like, I literally almost went mute. It was like, I just didn't even know what to do. And then something happened with my son and my ex. And it was one of those moments.

34:54
And I'm not going to get into details, but it was one of those moments that you look at. And it's like a movie and your whole world stops. And you're like, did I just see that? Is that what is happening? And I'm a big believer in spirituality and energy. So I kind of tabled this moment in my head. I went to bed that night and I woke up in the middle of the night, almost as if somebody pushed me, like it was like.

35:23
this energy came through and I just started weeping and I couldn't stop. My grandmother who, you know, I know Matt, you and I talked about it a little bit. My grandmother was my person. She was my whole world. She was my best friend. She had died about a year before that. I kept a lot of her flannels and so I put on a flannel of hers that night and I left the bedroom and I went to the couch and I put on some sort of like Nickelodeon show because I just needed like a comfort show.

35:53
And I just wept. I just cried the entire night. And then in the morning, I came back to the bedroom and my ex was like, what's the matter? What's wrong? Why are you crying? Right. Like one of those. And I was like, I think we need to go to couples counseling. And he was like, what? No, no, no. And it ended up being, everything's fine. It ended up being April 15th, this huge fight.

36:21
And I'm not like a fighter. We were not like fighters. Everything was like quiet, right? It was like a cold war. And I remember thinking like, okay, so this, the way that I see the world is a lot like, I am always like directing a movie in my head. Like that's like how I am. Maybe it's just my Pisces soul. So I remember going through the motions of this morning, right, I'm getting the kids ready for preschool, he is getting ready for work and we're fighting, right? It's just this big, chaotic fight.

36:51
All this shit's coming out, right? Like, what do we want in life? And blah, blah, blah. He's asking me questions and I'm like, I'm not, what are you talking about? Like, it was like this really wild fight. And he goes to work and I called my sister and I was like, I think this is it. I was like, this is crazy. Like, I don't even know what to say. So we haven't even gotten to my life shift yet. And so- Take it down that runway. I do- Yeah.

37:20
where yes, this is it, this is the big moment. So I do what all suburban moms who are about to end, have their marriage end, do as I go to Target. And I was oddly calm, I will say this, I think I knew it was like one of those moments in life, you're like, I gotta just fucking pull it together and get through this. And I called my sister, she lived in Queens at the time, so she was driving out, and in that hour long conversation, we kind of had like, we were like, okay, we gotta just, this is not.

37:48
We got to get me out of this marriage. Like this is not working. Called my parents. And now again, they didn't know, right? They did not know the extent of this. And I said, I don't think this is good. Now my parents, now my parents are divorced. They've been divorced since I was 10. But both of my parents, my biological parents had the same response, which was go to see a couples counselor like immediately. Just go immediately. Cause let's see what we can do, right?

38:16
So I called a bunch of couples counselors. I was texting with him a little bit while he was at work. I'm like, we have to go see somebody immediately. Meanwhile, he called me from work and it was like just a lot of drama, right? It was like, and I'm not a dramatic person. I love drama. I'm a big Broadway person. I'm not a dramatic person. And my sister's at the house with me and I was like, this doesn't feel like the same fight, right? It's like, something's different here. Like there's a real admission of things. Things were going on.

38:45
And so, you know, my son come, I pick up, my son was in kindergarten and I remember picking him up from kindergarten, literally feeling like I was in a twilight zone. I was like, what? And I guess that's what happens when you're in the middle of a life shift, right? Like, what is my life? What is happening? Like, I never thought that this would happen to me. You know, as a child of divorce, all I wanted in my life was to raise children with the person that I...

39:14
had kids with. That's like all I wanted. And so the moment that it all kind of shifted, you know, he comes home from work and we had this ranch house with a raised room over the garage. So we had built it out because he's a musician, we built it out like his studio. And so it was the kind of this like very like woody 1970s type room and he had all his instruments in there. And we had

39:42
scheduled an appointment for a therapist and I was really stealing myself to just be as strong as I could. I really didn't know what was going to happen. I really didn't. And so he comes home. We had, we were fine with each other. I put the kids to bed and we were doing a whole 30 at the time. And my eating issues were very much used against me in this relationship. And so, you know, I did all the cooking and so I was

40:12
standing at the stove with my back to the studio door. So he was playing guitar up in the studio. And I was making like a stir fry for us to eat because we were doing this whole 30. And I kind of, I think he said something to me like maybe we should talk about what happened today. And I was like, okay. And my back was to him and he said, and I'll never forget the words, I think I need to go. And I was like, go where?

40:42
Like, go where? And he's like, I think I need to leave. And I was like, like a divorce. And he said, yeah. And I remember in that very moment with the spatula in my hand being like, freedom. This is it. This is my liberation. And literally at that second, no joke, my friend Emily texted me, hey, what's going on? And I texted her back and I said, whatever his name. I said, he just said he's leaving. She goes, leaving where?

41:11
And I said, no, like, he's done. And I knew if I didn't harness the situation correctly, that I wasn't going to make it out of this life and mentally. Like it was that was it. Well, you would probably try to fix things or it wasn't going to work. Right. It was just I knew it was like this was the moment for a life. You had to survive. Yeah. Snap your fingers. Yeah.

41:37
And I'm a big believer in your ancestors watching over you. And I knew that they were with me at that moment. I was like, this is it. This is my moment. And, you know, I said, okay. And I, you know, and I said, I remember saying something like, it's going to be okay. Like, I think this is the best thing for both of us and really hyping it, which that's what I do now, was I hype divorce because it is a moment of liberation. And that was what happened. Now.

42:07
That was actually, and to his credit too, a beautiful moment. I will say that. It was a beautiful moment where two people who got married very young, who did not know who they were, realized that they both deserved more in life. We hugged. I was like, it's gonna be okay. We're both gonna be fine. Now, divorce is never that way. It never is. But in that moment, I had...

42:35
a feeling of like, this is going to actually, it's going to be a struggle. And I knew it's almost like when, you know, I don't know, you go through something really hard and you're like, I know it's going to be a hard road, but I know it's going to be okay in the long run. I just remember feeling the power of that moment and saying like, every single thing I do in this moment has to be perfectly orchestrated or I will not be okay. So he decided to leave.

43:04
and we decided to split up. We ended up living together for another four months, which I do not recommend to anybody, but again, it happened, very common, very, very common. I have a friend going through it right now. And, you know, long story short, I stayed in the marital residence. He ended up moving back to where his parents are in Illinois. Then, you know, the whole, he didn't move out till, so he didn't move out till August 2019.

43:35
And then the school year started, my son started kindergarten, I guess first grade. My younger son went to preschool for the first time. We started the divorce proceedings from afar, which was really helpful for both of our mental health and then the pandemic hit. And so that was a whole other thing, but that was my big moment. And I go back to that moment almost every day. Well, you had a long runway to bring you to this point, but it feels like...

44:03
you know, in a weird way, your ex-husband opened the door for you that you may not have ever opened yourself. I thank him for that. And I actually am very grateful. And I have said to him in the past, his deciding that was the best gift he ever gave me. You know, and not to not to paint that as a hero moment, but in a sense, it was.

44:32
someone that has been a good girl her entire life that wants to please other people, that was the door opening that you needed. Because other people could have been like, you need to do this, you need to do this. But they also didn't know the full breadth of your story because- And by the way, I didn't until after, right? So until he left, I didn't realize the extent of what was happening in that marriage. You didn't unpack it, yeah. I'm still unpacking stuff that happened in that marriage. So let's jump forward in interest of time as well,

45:02
You know, you, your whole life you spent, a couple things that I noticed. One, the fact that you come from a divorced household. So to me that makes sense that when you get married, all you want is to not get divorced, right? Because not that it, I mean, in my experience, I live in a divorced household and I think I was fine. You know, I don't think I was affected by that. And I was fine too. I just, you know what it was? It was like...

45:28
And by the way, I was raised by my biological dad, super involved, and my stepdad and my mom were amazing parents together. So I had a very stable childhood. The idea of raising children with a person that you had the children with was almost like a foreign animal to me. And I really did. I wanted that. And it makes sense. So that piece makes sense that you wanted to...

45:57
It was like, not in a bad way, but you had these two strikes in your mind of being a people pleaser, wanting to do it all, but also wanting to have that idyllic life, right? Like this married suburban kids and all the fun and loving the person that you're with through everything, no matter what. And you sacrificed your entire self. But once this door opened, and I'm sure there was a lot more that came after that.

46:27
You've now, since Unpack That, been able to use that experience to enhance other people's lives and a lot of other experiences. But maybe you can tell us a little bit about what brought you to your company and what you do and what you do for people. Because I think it's fascinating because it's kind of against...

46:54
not against, but it's kind of like counterintuitive to what our upbringing told us. In our society, absolutely. Yeah. So like I said, I stayed in the marital residence and it was really haunting, especially as you're realizing the abuse you endured to stay in the space that you were in was really hard. And I remember talking to my friend Lauren, who's a fresh starts expert and she's a psychic.

47:20
And she did a reading for me and she said, Olivia, you got to move out of that house. And at the time I was like, I can't move. I had no money from the divorce. I wanted my kids to have a stable house for a little while. She said, and I will never forget it. That house is a monument to your survival. Gives me chills still to think about that. So I stayed in the house. My sister came over and we cleaned out as much as we could, right? Of the things he left. And then also like.

47:49
All this stuff from my marriage, right? It's like your sheets that he touched and the towels he used every day. And I'm a small fork person. He was a big fork person, right? All these things. And so I really, I had this idea, this moment of like, why is there not a registry for this? Right, why is there not a registry for these hard moments when you actually need this stuff? Like...

48:14
People are living together before they get married nowadays. Nobody needs a new set of utensils or sheets. I mean, for the most part, right? A lot of people. And look, nothing against wedding registries. If you need it, you need it. Why are we not celebrating these hard moments, right? I took everything in me at my lowest point in life to get through that divorce. Why am I not getting a celebration for surviving, right? And so I- Or to choosing you. Or choosing me or choosing my children. And-

48:43
So I kind of like jokingly said to Jenny, you know, my sister, like, why is there not a registry for this? And I wrote my journal and I said, I want to start fresh starts registry to take the overwhelm out of making brave life decisions. So whether it's a divorce coming out, job loss, you know, job change, moving, everything seems so overwhelming when you're making a brave life decision. And I didn't have the energy to Google, you know, child therapist or Reiki healer or whatever it was.

49:13
And so that's essentially like kind of the nugget of where Fresh Starts came from in terms of my side of the story. And we started building it in August of 2021, which was not that much later. You know, now we are everywhere, which is amazing. And really the concept for the company comes from me looking at like, you know, as a single mom, a new single mom, thinking like

49:43
So many single moms have to leave their house, right? Start a new place. They have to get a room together for their kids. So we have the different bundles on the registry platform of things you can just add really quickly to your registry. We have scripts that people can use to send the registry out. So that says, you know, cause we believe that community care is self care. Your community should want to support you during these brave life decisions, right? And then we have our amazing experts because when you go through a life change,

50:10
You actually encounter 10 experts, at least 10 experts, average. And I had like four divorce lawyers alone. Right. So it's like, I wanted a place that people could go one stop shop and they could say, I'm going to get the things I need to start again and I'm going to get the people I need to hype me up and work with. It has been really interesting because we are shifting the narrative on divorce, especially, right.

50:33
And obviously Fresh Starts is for all brave life decisions, but we are the first divorce registry out there. We were in New York Magazine for it, right? And so we celebrate divorce. Divorce is liberation. Divorce is a gift. I want people to know that when they get divorced, they're choosing, like you said, Matt, they're choosing themselves, and that's beautiful. Well, I think part of your story resonates a lot with people that I've known. And again, our generation,

51:04
you said, part of your story, you said that, you know, like, I'll just stick it out until the kids are older. And as someone that has grown up in divorced family, I'm like, no, the kids know the kids are experiencing it. You know, it's funny. Yeah, because it's funny you say that, because I've had a lot of people that are like, you know, you talk so much about divorce and you're writing about divorce. And what are your kids going to think? Dude, my kids lived it. They were in that house. And, you know,

51:34
They lived the before and after. They lived the whole thing, right? And I will say I'm very, very aware of how I speak about their father. So I am grateful that he's their dad, because I have them. And there are things that they do that are so much like their dad. They're both amazing musicians. And I never say a bad word about him in front of them, ever. And I will say that as a tip to parents, if you can.

52:03
because my children come from him. That's part of them. And my ex is married now happily and has a, I think, a wonderful life, and I'm happy for him. He deserves that. He also was in an unhappy marriage, right? But I think, yeah, I think we have two rules at Fresh Starts, we always say. You have to be safe, and you have to be in the pursuit of joy. And that's it.

52:31
There's no rules in life. And it really, you know, I will hit this drum, beat this drum until forever that, you know, there's no reason at this point in our society to be living a miserable life. There's not. Yeah, I mean, I think, I think the more people I talk to, the more hope that I have for current.

52:57
and how people are looking at things, because I think for so long, we're a product of what our parents knew and understood and the rules that they were living by. And even to the point of when you kind of probably on purpose offhandedly said what you said in Costco in hopes that someone might overhear you instead of directly saying it.

53:23
I would never have looked at my parents and said, I think I need to get a divorce ever, ever. You just wanted them to possibly hear it so that maybe they could come up with some ideas for you that, you know, because you don't want to let them down. No, exactly. Yeah, and so I have this hope and I love that what you're doing and the messaging that you're putting out there, you're not pro divorce, like get divorced, but you are, if that is the decision that you make in the pursuit of joy.

53:52
Let's celebrate that. Let's not shame. Let's not add more heavy weight to these people's lives that are going through something that's already very hard. Very hard. And again, you don't know what's going on behind people's doors. You really don't. Like my story, like so many of my friends' stories, and the more that I started talking about this, I will say, the more people I get messaging me, I mean, I get messages every day on every platform. Thank you for talking about this. It makes me feel less alone.

54:21
I'm also going through this. There's no shame in divorce. And what's interesting is divorce is the second most stressful life event next to a partner passing away. And yet, when a partner passes away, your community is there to support you. And when you go through a divorce and you lose everything and you have no money, by the way, unless you're some sort of celebrity, you just are left with shame. And your community feels weird about supporting you, right?

54:50
And so we're completely shifting the narrative on that. And we're teaching the community how to support people. And we're releasing the stigma around these brave life decisions. And like you said, we're giving people permission to live lives of joy, because it's okay to have a beautiful life. So thinking of you, this version of you, what are like, what's the single biggest difference between Olivia now and Olivia 2017? Oh gosh.

55:20
That's a great question, Matt.

55:25
That's a really good question. Because I think that there was definitely, she was there, right, but she wasn't fully recognized. I'm an incredibly powerful person. And I've always known that, like since I was a child, but now I get the chance to utilize that. So I think that there's like a feeling of hope, right, that I have now of like, I didn't.

55:51
You know, my therapist always calls it friction, right? Like back then it was like everything, now that my life now is like a beautiful journey, because believe me, it's definitely, I have my, it's a lot. And I have two kids and I raised by myself and it's a lot. But there was this feeling back then of like, literally everything gave me a stomach ache, right? Nothing was working. Not one thing in my life was working. And now there's just definitely a sense of excitement about the future. I have complete.

56:21
joy about what I'm doing and helping people. And I have hope. I have hope for what's coming up and my life. And I very much enjoy the simple things now in a way that I wouldn't have then. You know what I see? And again, I only know you through Twitter and a couple of conversations through this. I see that this version of you is leaning forward, whereas the old version of you was kind of leaning back in fear. Yeah.

56:52
you know, like what's coming next, whereas now you're what's coming next, but leaning into it. What can I do next versus, you know, like what's coming at me, you know, and a lot of people that I talk to on the Life Shift, we look back at these experiences and we look back at them in a weird way in some kind of gratitude because of the things that we've learned from that.

57:19
Do you feel the same about your, even as traumatic as those things are? Does this version of you see that you needed to go through that or? Oh, a hundred percent. A hundred percent. And I'm so, you know, I'm so grateful for so many things in my marriage. Right. I learned a lot and I will and I give my ex credit like he he did see my light, I think. It's just what he did with it was not what I expected. Right.

57:46
And, you know, when I, for example, when I decided to leave my full-time job and go freelance, he was number one supporter, right? He really was. And so I'm grateful that I, I very much feel like the universe has a plan for me and I needed to go through that so I could be here. I would never in a million years be here without that, right? And so I am grateful for all of that.

58:16
I think are going to do bigger things than I am in this world. And they had to be on this planet. And so they are the reason that I was in that relationship and other reasons too. But I learned obviously I would never be the full me I was supposed to be and get the help. I mean, it's funny even I remember thinking my therapist said something to me like, you know, Olivia, if you had been widowed, you wouldn't have

58:44
gone through this journey of healing. I needed to go through this journey of therapy and a lot of healing and body stuff. That would never have happened if I hadn't gone through the divorce. I think people think divorce, and so many people are getting divorced, but it's a monumental life shift. It really is. At least from the people I've talked to that have gone through it, it really pushes you into the person that you

59:14
are supposed to be. So I'm really grateful. I'm really grateful. And I often will, in my mind, go back to the me then and put my arm around her. And I'm like, it's coming. Like you're gonna be okay, you know? Well, you just jumped my final question of what would you do. And I think it's true. I think a lot of the old versions of ourselves, we don't need advice. We don't need, we wouldn't have listened probably

59:44
We just needed to know that we were going to be okay and that someone was there. We were, you know, that arm around you. So what I am going to do is I'm going to steal from you. I'd like to know what's the last thing that you ate that you absolutely loved and you cannot stop thinking about. Well, I'm going to go back to your other question for a second. So first, because yes, I think I would go back to that girl and put my arm around her. But I also think if I had said to that girl.

01:00:13
Olivia, you're going to get divorced, move back home with your kids and start a company that's going to change the world. I would be like, that tracks. Sure. So I do think that there's an element of me that always kind of felt this was a journey and I still am on this journey. And I think that that's where a lot of the confusion was. It was like I was waking up every day thinking like, this is not the life that I thought I was going to have. But I wonder, but I wonder if you knew that, like if you had that information.

01:00:41
If it would, you know, like sometimes we have to go through that really sticky mud, quicksand kind of moment and get out of it. I mean, I had to. I had to. And looking back, it's it really is like a completely different person. I don't know. Tell me about the food. Oh, that's a great question. Because it's your question. That's my question. So Jenny and I, we have a local coffee shop here in. Well, there's a couple of them here called South Down Coffee.

01:01:10
And we just went before this podcast and they have an orange loaf. I love like loaf cakes. I don't know if it's like when I was little, my parents took me to Bermuda and their tea cakes were like the best thing I'd ever eaten. And I think that I like never recovered from that. So I like, I love a good loaf cake. And so I have my iced matcha latte, which is so good with oat milk and the loaf cake, and we sit and we people watch and it's like the best moment. I love it.

01:01:37
And I love that you came on and shared this journey, because I think that so many people, just as you see every day with fresh starts, that so many people can relate to this experience and that they're definitely not alone in this experience. And especially people pleasers and people that have always kind of followed the rules, we kind of get stuck down this path that we didn't necessarily see for ourselves, but somehow we got down it. And so seeing what you're doing now for people

01:02:07
because of this experience and helping others is really inspirational. So thank you for being a part of this. And we will certainly share links to the book that you and your sister released in April 2023. That is a fantastic book that has hundreds of scripts that people can use. And I would, I've, you know.

01:02:31
wanted to tweak a couple for my own voice, right? But wonderful ways to be a good human being and help others through those experiences where we just don't know what to say. So I'm gonna definitely share all that, but thank you for being a part of this. Thank you, Matt, for everything that you do. I appreciate it. So Olivia has a podcast, so go check out a fresh story that she does with her sister, Jenny.

01:02:54
So check out their show. I will link to that as well. And if you like either show, please consider giving us a five-star rating and a nice little review for us, and that we'll get more people to see what we do. So thank you guys, and we will see you next week with a brand new episode.

01:03:21
For more information, please visit www.thelifeshiftpodcast.com