Embracing Change: Resilience and Transformation After Personal Turmoil | Jackie Ferguson

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This story is 22 years in the making, and I never thought I would tell it publicly. So I'm excited and a little anxious about the opportunity to share this story, but I hope that it can inspire someone. Welcome back to the LifeShift Podcast, and today my guest is Jackie Ferguson. Her journey shows the human spirit's incredible ability to keep going and find hope in the most challenging of times.

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In this episode, we talk through Jackie's deeply moving story. And in fact, it is one of the first times she's actually shared it publicly. It's marked by personal turmoil, grief, and really a total redefinition of her life in the wake of a crumbling marriage and loss in her family. But it was the birth of her daughter that stood as the most transformative moment for her. It was really a pivotal shift that reoriented her life and kind of

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led this path of resilience and self-discovery. Jackie Ferguson, she is an inspiration. She's the vice president of content and programming at the Diversity Movement. She's a bestselling author, and she's the host of another podcast called Diversity Beyond the Checkbox. She brings a unique perspective on diversity, communication, and leadership in that podcast.

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Her work and insights are not just reshaping workplaces and communities, they're breaking down barriers and they're fostering a more inclusive world. So if you've ever found yourself at a crossroads, you're uncertain and alone, I think Jackie's story will resonate with you. It's really about redefining success on your own terms and really finding the strength to navigate life's journey independently. Before we jump into the episode, I'd like to extend my gratitude to the Patreon supporters for

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their consistent support. It just means so much to me. And so this episode, I'd like to shout out Nick, Gail, Sari, Brian, and my friends, Shane and Trapper at Dream Vacations. All of you are supporting one episode a month and this just allows me to try out new pieces of software, which I am trying out now, and just continue to bring these stories to the masses. If you'd like to help support this show, please check out patreon.com.

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com forward slash the life shift podcast. And you can see all the different tiers and we have a t-shirt giveaway coming up. So I would appreciate any support that you have. Thank you for that. And without further ado, here's my conversation with Jackie Ferguson. I'm Matt Gilhooly and this is the life shift. Candid conversations about the pivotal moments that have changed lives forever.

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Hello, my friends. Welcome to the LifeShift Podcast. I am here with Jackie Ferguson. Hey, Jackie. Hi. How are you doing today? I'm doing wonderful. I'm excited to be here. You're excited to be here, and I'm letting the listeners in on a little bit. You told me you were a little bit nervous, just like a slight nervous energy to it. Yeah, so, you know, this story is 22 years in the making, and I never thought I would tell it publicly, so.

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I'm excited and a little anxious about the opportunity to share the story, but I hope that it can inspire someone. You know what I have found over the 100 plus episodes that I've done now with this show is that even the stories that maybe on the surface seem fairly like common or, you know, something that's like, okay, I could see how that happens.

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It's like this little nugget that's within that episode that someone says that the person heard it at just the right moment. I don't know if you've ever read a book at the right time in your life. And it just spoke to you. So for sure, no matter what you say, something about your story will resonate with others. And you know what, I can relate to that 22 years or two decades of a story kind of unfolding my own journey.

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of grieving my mom's death when I was a kid was over two decades long. And it was something in which it took that long for me to start sharing it like in a way that was helpful, maybe helpful for me, first of all, and not, you know, I think I took two decades to get out of what I felt was more of like a victim type feeling to it, to really taking ownership of that story. So I can relate on how long

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sitting with something in a story that really hasn't been as public in a certain way must feel. So thank you for just wanting to do it. I think it's very brave of a lot of people to come on a stranger show, if you will, to be like, hey, here's everything. Here's something I've never shared. So thank you for that. Of course. I'm glad to be here. Well, to get us started, maybe you can just, just a small snapshot of who you are right now that doesn't give away too many details.

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related to your story and then kind of paint the picture of what your life was like leading up to that moment. Yeah. So currently I am a wife, a mother, a home cook. I love to cook. Oh, not me. I am an entrepreneur, a podcast host and an author. So you don't do anything. You're just kind of just sit around all day. No, I sit around, watch TV. Good for you. That's a lot of plates to be spinning. That's right. That's right. But I like staying busy.

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So maybe you can kind of paint the picture of what your life was like leading up to the moment we're gonna kind of dissect today and talk about. Yeah, so I'll start with the moment, which is a moment that shifts a lot of lives and that's giving birth to my child. However, there was a lot surrounding that moment, right? It's a moment again that changes everyone, but there was a lot going on at the time. So this was almost 22 years ago now, and my grandmother,

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who was my very best friend in the world, was sick. And in the process of dying at that point, she actually died two days before my daughter was born. And that broke me. And at the time, my mother was living with them in Pennsylvania, and she was caring for my sick grandfather who also had dementia.

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So she was not planning arrangements for my grandmother and taking care of my grandfather. She could not come to be with me during the birth of my daughter. And totally understand that. And every time I tell her this story or mention this time in my life, she gets so upset because she would have wanted to be there, but she couldn't because of everything that she was doing. My marriage was dissolving over the course of my...

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pregnancy, I realized that the person I was married to wasn't very nice to me. And going through that while you're pregnant is extremely difficult. And so with all of that, I was not dilating, so they decided to induce me. So this is two days after my grandmother has passed. And now I've got to go into...

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the hospital to be induced to have a child with someone that I knew I wasn't going to be with long term and no one else. And so that morning I left, came out my door of the house and Matt, what I'll tell you is, you know, I had set my life up very regimented, right? So I went to college and I graduated and I...

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got engaged and bought a house and got pregnant and all the things that make a Christmas card look great, right? Yeah, that's the checklist life I talked to so many people about. It's just like we were conditioned so much. I don't know who told us that we were supposed to do all that, but all of us had that same checklist of things that we had to do. And we think when we get to the end of that checklist that everything is gonna be perfect. And what I found out was that it was not.

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And so as I left my house to have my daughter, it was December and it was icy. And I slipped down the stairs in front of my house and onto the concrete. When you slip on ice, you slip very fast and there's no way to catch yourself. And so now I'm going to the hospital to be induced in a state of grief and sadness and in pain.

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And so went to the hospital, they put me on the Pitocin and gave me all the things to induce my labor. And I went through 10 hours of labor. I wasn't effacing, so that means my water was not going to break. So they went in to break my water at this point. And then I've got all back pain, right, from falling down the stairs.

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And they tried to break my water, but because I wasn't effaced, it was the most painful thing I've ever endured. And I've gotten hit by a car. I've had some pain in my life. This was, there's a level of pain that I didn't know you could reach where anytime you experience pain, your body tenses up. There's a level of pain that's so significant.

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that your body just relaxes. You feel it. You feel it in full. But your body is in a state of shock and can't respond to it. And so I'm laying there with tears coming out of my eyes, but I can't speak. And the doctor knew at that point what had happened. And her face was just, I am so sorry. And so.

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I continued to be in labor and go through the labor process. So then my daughter's heart rate started dropping. And then she passed stool in utero, which is meconium. So that happens when there's a decrease in oxygen and blood flow. So now we're both in trouble at this point. So they issued after this was 10, 11 hours an emergency c-section.

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So they get me and they're fast because, you know, who knows what's going to happen at this point? You know, will I make it? Will my daughter make it? And I'm there with a person who

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You know, just couldn't be what I needed him to be because we were so far apart from each other emotionally. And then I'm thinking about my grandmother and thinking about my mom. I felt very, very alone. And now I don't know if I'm gonna live or not. And your baby. Right, right. And so then I get wheeled in.

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And I'm laying there in this very sterile room, right, which is different from the birthing room. Now you're in the OR. And it was cold and sterile. And my husband at the time was there in the room, but standing far in the corner. So it was me and the anesthesiologist, and the anesthesiologist was at my head.

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and just talking me through it. Meanwhile, I can see because they have to move so quickly and I can see blood on the ceiling from how fast they have to do this operation and pull my daughter out. We both made it. So that was good. I'm glad to hear that. But that was the moment, Matt, where I said, okay, I am on my own.

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I have to do this on my own. You resigned to, almost like, it's interesting to resign to confidence in yourself. Absolutely. Because I'm thinking of your story, I was fortunate enough to have a relationship kind of like you alluded to with your grandmother of just like best friends, just everything. And I can imagine two days after, you're supposed to be on your checklist.

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You're supposed to be happy. You're about to check off another box of society's checklist for you. You're going to be happy now. Finally, happiness is coming because a baby is coming. And then it was like one domino after the other of all your... I don't know why I'm picturing Stonehenge, but the people around you, in a sense of like, they're all falling. There's nothing there and it's just you.

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laying on the sterile table. I can imagine what that feeling was that feeling like, what brought you to the resignation of like, I can do this on my own, this is my movement forward. Did a lot of it have to do with that environment that you were in and that OR? Did it feel like a blank space, like a blank sheet of paper because it was so sterile? It did Matt, it was like, okay, here is this defining moment.

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And I have to start from here. Because through my childhood, Matt, I've always been a very anxious person, always wanting to have everything in order, always wanting a plan for everything. And when I didn't have my plan and didn't have my things in order, I would get very anxious. And so that continued into my early 20s. And I was 27, almost 28 when I had my daughter.

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And until then, you know, I wanted to prescribe my life. And... Didn't roll with the punches hardly at all, right? No, did not like that. I get that. Was your family before, was your childhood, was your, was it a complete picture perfect family? Yeah, both of my parents were married until my father passed away. My grandparents were married for...

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Gosh, it was 60 years before my grandmother passed away first and then my grandfather six months after. So, you know, and I had love and I had stability and all of the things that, you know, you want as a child and want as an adult. That's amazing. The reason I ask that is more my own personal experience. I found that I was very similar to that in the sense that there was a perfectionist aspect to it. Yes, definitely. But mine was...

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The reason I ask is mine was felt very trauma related now that, you know, at 40 something looking back on that is that it feels like I was doing all the things to check all the boxes to be perfect so that my dad also wouldn't leave me because in my mind, my mom abandoned me. So I was doing all I could to be perfect so that my dad would not that he would, but, you know, small brains think differently.

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So I was curious and it sounds like you had that love around you. So you just kind of wanted to maybe keep the love and keep the things going. Yeah, you know, I think that's exactly right. You know, I was always looking for love from and and pride from my parents and my grandparents. And so in my head, creating this perfect life was the way to do that. And then it all started crumbling.

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And in that moment, you know, I was always the type to not take risks and go with a safe route, right? And in that moment, I said, okay, you've got to do this on your own. Did you have a sense of, forgive me if this is too far, did you ever feel like you wanted to just like screw it all? I give up. I quit. When all these dominoes were falling and, you know, give into it.

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something different? It, you know, I felt a sense of obligation to my child. Okay. And I didn't want to give up on her. But it would have, I was in such a state for a very long time of depression after that, just dealing with my grandmother's passing.

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Did you have depression or moments like that earlier in your life at all? Do you recall? Not really. You know, my childhood and early adulthood, you know, because it was so prescriptive, I... You knew how to feel. Right, exactly. That's exactly right. I knew how to feel. And so, yeah, this was the time where everything was different and it was hard and it was messy and it was...

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sad. And yeah, so that was the moment that I said, okay, I've got to do this on my own. And that is where I developed my real strength and resilience. How much longer after like the birth did you really feel like you were taking charge?

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I got the flag, let's go. Because you mentioned there was some depression after, and I'm sure that mixed with postpartum and things that come with having a child, a brand new child. You know, it was a long process, Matt. So I was excited about being a mom and terrified at the same time. And surviving just the ordeal is a big thing too. That's right. And then having to deal with.

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my grandmother's passing and then my grandfather passed six months after. So then there was that and super hard. It was a long time. I remember when I really grieved my grandmother's death and that was on Mother's Day because I'm generally a giving person. So I said, this is my mom's first Mother's Day without her mom. So I'm going to go and take...

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Diana, my daughter, and we're gonna go spend Mother's Day with her. And it was then that I realized that I had not been able to grieve because I was focused on Diana, which was a needed distraction. Because honestly, Matt, I don't know how I would have reacted if I didn't have my daughter at that time. And she was a surprise. She was not actually planned.

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But I needed her because I don't know what would have happened if I didn't have her to focus on. And so, yeah, it was a tough year and a tough few years. It took me two and a half years after that to divorce my husband at the time. So that period of time was probably compounding all the other feelings because you already know. You already know you're out.

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Exactly, we're sleeping in separate bedrooms, not really speaking, he's asking about Diana, but not about me, right? And that's hard and lonely, and I'm young, and I wanna be happy, and I want to enjoy my life, and I'm not. How about the society's pressure that you're a mom now, so you should be happy? So I'm sure that played into it. Everyone else on the outside just assumes that everything's rosy.

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Right. You know, you think there's this like beautiful picture, Matt, of when you give birth to a baby and you have that just instant bonding moment and everything is rosy and right. Exactly. I did not have that. I was terrified and sad and all these emotions and hurt that my marriage was ending even though I...

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couldn't pull the trigger on it at that point. It took me some time to be able to do that. But yeah, it was really difficult, but through that I was building more strength and more resilience. And I spent a lot of time alone with and with my daughter. And so, you know, of course, when my mom had an opportunity, she came.

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to see me, which was amazing, and spent time with Diana, who she absolutely adores. And that was a helpful break for me in everything that I was going through. But still, I didn't share with her at that time everything that I was going through. Do you know why? Do you think there was a, was there an element of shame that you didn't live up to a certain expectation or something along those lines that you weren't as open with her? Definitely.

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Because you didn't want to let her down? Yes, absolutely. You know, I always wanted to succeed, right? And I wasn't succeeding. It just depends on how we define success. That's right. That's right. And that's exactly right. And ultimately, it worked out. But at that point, right, at that point, I felt like I've messed this up, right? And I have this beautiful person that I'm responsible for.

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And do I have the capacity to give her a happy life when I'm feeling so terrible? But ultimately, I was able to, you know, there's no book for parenting, but I was able to do that for her. And now she's a senior in college and she'll be 22 this year and I'm totally obsessed with her.

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Leave me alone. That's right. Or is she there yet? Is she at that point? She's gone through that, and now we're at the point where we're like BFFs, but not all the time. Like I can't over call, which is just fine. She's setting the rules. I mean, I think that's important to, you know, early before we started this conversation, you were like, I hope it inspires someone out there. Like what you're describing, I think, is probably way more common.

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than we hear. That picture that you said exists, maybe that doesn't even happen. Like I think we've created this hallmark card of moments in lives in which this is what it's supposed to feel like and if you don't, you're not successful or you haven't met that thing. But I think, I mean, despite not including, you know, like falling down the stairs and those kinds of things that was part of it, I think your experience in how you felt.

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not the emergencies and all that, is probably way common in people and women. Absolutely. And the sad thing is I think that so many women take on the responsibility of not letting other people know that they feel the way that they're feeling. I think that's the scary sad part, and I hope it's changing, but I don't know that it is. It's tough to be vulnerable and reach out for help when...

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You don't want to disappoint people. Right, because everyone's assumed that mothers should be happy all the time. That's right. And you've got to carry the weight on your own. Or I felt like I did. And certainly, if I were to ask my mother, she would say, absolutely not. I would have been there. I would have wanted to know. But I just didn't want to disappoint her. And she was already busy.

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caring for my sick grandfather, and I didn't want to put pressure on her. But, you know, it's. It's, you know, it's difficult even now to think about, like, the whole process of what I went through. But. Well, when you look back now, are you like, holy crap, like I, I went through a lot and I came out, like, surprisingly, really decently, like.

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You know, it made me feel like, OK, I can do anything. So now I have the confidence that no matter what curveballs get thrown my way, I'm going to be fine. So one of the things, Matt, that I'm really proud of is starting a business with my husband. So I'm remarried. He's a great guy. And we started a business together. And it's super successful. We're doing really well. How long after?

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your daughter was born, did you get in this new relationship and start the company? So I married Dawn in 2019, so just about four years ago. This is a newer. Yeah, so it's a newer. We were in a relationship for about four years before. Yeah, we've been married for four, so. Yeah, but I mean, understanding. I just wanted, I was wondering the time period between when your daughter was born and when you kind of.

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hit these milestones in which life is no longer as prescribed as it used to be. That's right. Your checklist was like out the window. What were some of those mile markers before you got to this new relationship and starting the business? Were there any things where you were like, dang, I'm doing this? Yeah. So I would say, Matt, just taking control of my life. So like the divorce. Yeah. The divorce. And then, okay.

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instead of just taking a job, like what do I want to do? How do I move forward and really support my daughter in a way that makes her life wonderful on my own, right? And so that was an amazing moment to say, okay, I can do this on my own and I can figure out and work towards the life that she deserves and the life that I deserve. That you deserve, yeah.

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I think it's interesting too, sorry to keep going back to this checklist life, but I lived my life to this to the point, and I don't know if you did this as well, but when I went to college, I didn't go to college for things that I was wanting to do or was interested in. I really chose the thing that I knew that I could be the most successful in college. I know I can get an A in that, or I know I can graduate with a close to a 4.0 or whatever it may be. It wasn't like, oh,

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really want to do this. I'm super passionate about this. Did you go to school for things that you really wanted to do or were you more like me? I started it and then because I said, okay, I need to graduate in four years. So how do I get to graduation at four flat years? Well, the first year or so I'm bouncing around, figuring out what I think I want to do. And then I'm like, okay.

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this isn't part of the plan, like five years of school, right? I've gotta be outta here in four years. Right. Four years flat, how do I do that? And so I majored in professional writing, which actually serves what I'm doing now, cause I'm a VP of content and programming for the diversity movement, which is right in line with what I majored in. What were you doing in between so that, that the reason I asked this is, you know, you said you like,

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wanted to start leaning into the things you wanted to do? Was there like jobs that you were in that you were just like, why am I doing this before that? Yeah, so I did some sales, which was not my forte. I did some marketing in HR, but really where I benefited was I did a lot of executive support. So I worked for a lot of very successful executives.

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and understood how they think and understood how they work and what their expectations were. And so because I've always been a really good listener, right, an observer of people, I was able to use that to then help facilitate success in my own business. Yeah. What was the impetus for starting your business? It was my husband. He said, you know, we have a business that is

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helps organizations bring diversity, equity, and inclusion into their cultures in a way that's meaningful and creates both, you know, cultures of inclusion and business success. And so we were looking at that from a marketing lens and he said, we should do a marketing course that's a DEI course for marketers. And so we started, so I volunteered because...

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That's what I do, right? I'm like, well, I'll do it. I know a little about DEI. Didn't realize that I didn't know anything about DEI at the time, but I learned a lot. I got spun up really fast. And then we did the course. The course was successful. We had companies saying, okay, great, this is helpful, but what's next? And that's how we started the business. That's awesome. Would you, old version of you, would you have started a business?

30:45
No, it's too much risk. Too much risk. I feel the same way. I'm still there, by the way. I'm still in this like, I could never do that. I want to work for someone else. And you know, it's scary. And another thing, Matt, is I also host a podcast. And when I was on my first podcast, I literally lost my breath. I was so terrified because it was just so new. And I was like,

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you know, do people want to listen to me? And then all of those old, like insecurities come back. Right. And then my daughter slipped me a note and said, you've got this. And I still keep it with me to this day. I have it with me right now, you know, and for her, I move outside of my comfort zone. I do things afraid, right. Until I, until I can figure it out.

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And I've been able to be really successful and give her the life that I've wanted her to have. But it's been through a lot of struggle and hustle and, you know, grind and mistakes and, you know, doing the best I can. That's right. Absolutely. You know, when you described your daughter sending you that note, I immediately had like a vision of kind of like a lighthouse in a sense that like she's like your reminder of.

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that moment, like that call, that beacon of some sort, that's like, hey, remember what you promised yourself. That's right, absolutely. You promised you were gonna be able to do this and you can do this, and even if you make mistakes, you're still doing it. I bet the mistakes of early Jackie were like, mistakes, and now they're just like lessons. Exactly right. And you're just so hard on yourself when you mess something up or you don't get something right, and now it's like,

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Okay, like what do I learn from this? And, you know, nothing is so bad. Like I've been through the hard and the scary and the messy and the dirty and the pain and the grief. Right, so anything else I can figure it out. Do you consider that moment?

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a moment in which you were kind of facing your mortality.

33:09
I don't know that I felt that because if I allowed myself to feel that, I may not have been able to push as hard. I had to focus on breathing and being as calm as possible while all this was happening to me. Yeah. So I did not feel that. I think.

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Like you didn't have a fear that you were gonna die or... I knew that I could have. But I actually, I never thought about this, Matt, so this is a great question. But I never really accepted that as a fate. And I really never thought about that. But I couldn't fail at that. Yeah, yeah. No, and then I ask because I think for some, it might have been that awakening.

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Like, oh, I can do this. But for you, your awakening came in the hallway before that. Like, before that final door, you were like, not going this way. Whereas some people might be at the door. And that's that last minute reminder. But you had this child coming. You knew that you had to be fully here for that. It's so interesting to think about. Fortunately, I've never been in a moment in which I feel like this is it.

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this is going to be the moment. And I love that you still have that subconscious strength to not give up, right? Like, I feel like it's, I feel like I watch these, this is gonna be so off topic. I watch these post-apocalyptic type movies once in a while or shows, and they're like fighting so hard to escape whatever or whatever. I'm like, I don't know that I would wanna live that.

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you know, that badly, like to do all these things that they're doing is a different circumstance. But you know what I'm saying is like, I think, I feel like there are some people that would just resign to like, oh, well, this is what it is, but. Right, because it's like, what are you fighting for? Right. Right. So if you make it out of this one situation, what's the life that you have? And that's really where I was. Like I was very depressed and sad after losing my grandmother because you know, when you have...

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that best friend and that cheerleader. And my mom has really stepped into that role for me. And is that for me now? Like she'll be the first one, Matt, to listen to this podcast. So hi, mom. Hi, mom. Yeah. Were you there when your grandmother passed? No, I was in North Carolina, and they were in Pennsylvania. And so I got a call on the 17th at very early in the morning.

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my then husband actually answered the call. And I knew by his face that she was gone. It was, I can't describe how alone I felt in that moment because she was always my cheerleader and my support. And I did everything right. And I was the best granddaughter in the world and all of those things that.

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make you feel loved and special, and that was gone, and no one will ever replace her. But my mom is my cheerleader, and she's such a fantastic support and always shares how proud she is of me. And that is so meaningful to me that I've been able to restore.

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a happy life. And now I do have the life that I wanted without the checklist, right? The messy one, the, you know, not everything went perfectly and, you know, I did it. Yeah, exactly. Because the outcome now is, is really fantastic. And I can say that I'm very happy. And I have all the things that I tried to checklist. And for

37:22
For people that think that you have to checklist your life, sometimes it's the messy that creates the life that you really, really want and that you need. I don't know if one of my, if my guest coined this, but one of my earlier guests, she said the mess is our message. And I was like, you're 100%. Absolutely. You know, my mess created this version of me, you know,

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the tragedies that I went through or what I consider my life tragedies, losing my mother and then watching my grandmother pass away. Both of those moments in my life made me this version of me take it or leave it, but I am proud of how those formed me. So I can totally relate yet that checklist. It's always still there for me. Like it's still in that, it's still hanging out over here. But I think it's trauma informed more so.

38:21
You know, I asked about you being around your grandmother when she passed, because I would imagine that not being there made the grieving process harder or different in a way. Because was there a sense that she was passing? That did you have an opportunity to say goodbye in a way? She was sick and in the hospital. But I was always under the...

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illusion, delusion, however, that she was going to get better. Because I've had, you know, my father at that point had been in the hospital and recovered. My grandfather had been in the hospital and recovered. And I just, I didn't lose people at that point in my life. Was she the first person that you lost that you were close to? And then how old were you at this time? 27. Mm-hmm. And so, yeah, it's hard to know what to do.

39:19
And it was a longer process because I wasn't there when she passed and I also wasn't able to attend her memorial. And so, because I had just had a baby, right? Still in the hospital. You know, so it was a long process, but it wasn't until that Mother's Day that I think that I really came to terms with the fact that she was gone. Did you talk to anyone or anything about grief or no?

39:48
probably should have. Hey, still can. There's always that opportunity. You know what? It's always interesting to me when I hear stories of people that haven't lost anyone until 20 something. But maybe that's just my own experience speaking here. But what happened for me? When my mom died, it was a sudden thing. She was 32. She died in an accident. And my dad had to tell me, kind of like your husband at the time had to tell you.

40:18
And I think that that part of not being able to say goodbye, not being able to like close the door, also not understanding death really at eight, really informed that 20 plus years of the grief journey that I went on. But in the sense of looking back at these messy moments and seeing the value in them, what it did do is it created this relationship with my grandmother like you described with yours, just like inappropriate at times.

40:46
perfect at times, you know, just the most fun, but also the most respectful. And when she was diagnosed with cancer, I was like, let's go, let's do this right. Because I know that this is, there is an end coming here. I have the opportunities. And so with her death, we did all the fun things. And when it got a couple months before she died, I was like, look, you're not getting any better. So, we need to have this conversation.

41:16
And we were able to say all the things that you probably thought after your grandmother died. Like, I wish she knew this, or she probably knows this, but I wish I could say it one more time. And I got to say all those things. And to your point of just the messy parts can really just create something that has beauty to it, was that I had that conversation, then I spent the last 96 hours of her life with her and watched her take her last breath. And had I not lost my mom in the way that I did?

41:46
The experience with my grandmother probably wouldn't have been as beautiful, as sad as it was, but as beautiful. You know, and so I totally subscribe to that, the messy parts. Absolutely. And you know, the thing that I've, I live my life remembering and understanding is, don't leave those things unsaid and treat people well, because you never know when that's the last time you'll see them. Yeah. And I never want...

42:16
You know, I was fortunate enough with my grandmother that I feel good about her knowing that I loved her and respected her and valued her. And when my grandfather passed, it was the same. When my father passed, it was the same. And my mother knows that now. And I think that...

42:42
people often don't take the time to make sure that that loved one knows how much they're loved. And you kind of rush through visits and things like that when really you should take the time and look at them and listen to them and take those moments because tomorrow's not promised to any of us. Well, as you were saying that, I was also thinking that younger Jackie should have...

43:10
done those things for herself too, in a way, and just really put that confidence in yourself and that love in yourself, and that you didn't have to hit this mark, or you didn't have to do this thing. You could still be happy if you didn't hit whatever that successful marker was you made for yourself. I think that's a good lesson for all of us to really honor ourselves too and trust ourselves. Unfortunately,

43:38
your event that you spoke about, the birth of your daughter had to trigger this newer, more enhanced version of you. That's right. What would you say is the biggest difference between you now and you that was seven months pregnant going through what you were going through? I would say, Matt, that I didn't realize how strong I was. And so there's so much confidence in strength.

44:07
and there's security and strength. And I was looking for security in my checklist and security in a process. And really, I'm enough and I can figure it out. And in knowing that, it has changed the way that I was able to approach my own life and then provide an amazing experience for my daughter.

44:36
What's the exact same about you? Is there anything that's the same or do you feel like a new person since becoming a mom? I still like my process. Yeah. It's just a little looser? Well, you know, in work and in my personal life, organization and process is still part of it, but I don't have to have it all right all the time. And I give myself a little space and a little grace. How about when you're cooking?

45:05
Do you use a recipe or you just throw things in? Okay, there you go. Yeah, that is. There's your little spice. That's right. And you know, I learned that from my grandmother because I used to cook with her and she never used a recipe and it always was perfect every time and it's a taste and adjust. So I always say that cooking is an art and baking is a science. That's why I like to bake. Everything is precise. And if you don't do it precisely.

45:35
You'll taste it on the other side, won't you? You will not get what is in the picture. That's right. If you don't follow through. Yeah. No, I it's, it's very interesting to look back and, and think about how we absorb these checklists and what they actually do. And are they serving us? Maybe. Are they harming us? Maybe, you know, and it's, it's really interesting to have the ability to have a moment, although yours, I would not wish on anyone because so traumatic.

46:05
back to back to back to back to back. But that moment allowed you to have the awareness of like what was happening and what you could do and what you should do and trust your intuition and all those pieces. Is that weird to think about such a lovely, cause you got your daughter, but such a scary and sad time in your life as something that.

46:30
through you into this new stratosphere? Yeah, you know, it's like sometimes, you know, flowers grow in the dirt, right? And I have this experience that was, you know, not colorful and not exciting and not beautiful. And through that, I got an amazing daughter who's doing amazing things and just lights up my life. And so flowers grow in the dirt, yeah.

47:00
Does your daughter like a checklist? No. She is definitely, she has been a challenge and part of the reason why I'm like, OK, I guess we can do it like this. Because she is very driven, but she's like, let's try it. Let's do it. Let's figure it out. And I really respect that about her. Yeah, it's probably taught you a thing or two. Absolutely. Yeah.

47:29
you know, your story started out so sad. You know, it's, I mean, we did flashback and you had a happy childhood and you had these happy moments. But really the start of this Jackie started in a sad, scary moment. Yes. And looking back on that, looking back on that version of Jackie, you know, after...

47:56
the Stair incident or right before the Stair incident or just knowing that you were living in this space in which someone didn't respect you or love you in the way that you needed them to, is there anything that you, Jackie, now could say to her that would help her in this journey she was about to go through?

48:16
Hmm. I would say to that younger Jackie...

48:24
You can do this. You're gonna be fine. You're gonna figure it out on your own.

48:32
Do you think she would listen?

48:35
Probably not. She would probably look for that checklist. Yeah, just tell me what to do. It's so much easier if you just tell me what to do, but maybe it's not. Maybe it's not. If we distill it down to something as simple as podcasting, someone can't tell you what to do for your show. That's true. It won't work. Right. And so I don't want to distill this moment down to that, but it feels like...

49:05
you kind of had to go through those moments to get to this place, to see the beauty in the mess, to see the beauty that a child could bring to your life, despite the home, not so great moments that you had going on and the loss of your grandmother and all those pieces. Yeah. It's, you know, it's, I think Matt, it, it feels like

49:38
I had this experience, but it allowed me to grow into the person that I was too, not confident enough to be. Stepping outside of the blueprints and the processes and the checklists, I was able to do that and figure out what was right for me, which is, you know, which was not necessarily

50:07
you know, in that checklist of do this and then this and then this. And when you get to the end, you'll be happy. And so I think people should find their own journey and you know, what is, what is right for you and, and spend less time worrying about what other people expect and figure out what makes you feel fulfilled and give yourself.

50:37
space and grace, because you deserve it. And understand, I'll add to this, and understand that vulnerability is also a strength. Yes. So forgive me for asking this, but why don't you share this story as often or ever or in your own journey? Yeah, so my mother knows this story. Diana knows parts of this story, but I did talk to her before.

51:07
I'm coming on your show.

51:11
You know, I think, Matt, that now that, you know, it just feels... It's just a vulnerability that I didn't want to share. You know, it still makes me very emotional and very sad and then very happy about the outcome. But...

51:36
being emotional as a woman in the workplace is, you know, still has, there's still some bias around that. And it should be seen as a strength, but, you know, and maybe after this, I'll start telling the story more often. Well, and the reason I ask that is you sharing the story, there's nothing about your story that would make, that I feel would make someone think

52:06
worse of you. I think they would think more of you. I think it adds more layers. I mean, I don't know you outside of this hour that we've been talking, but I feel because we have this conversation, I feel like I know you better than some of the people that are around you because I feel like I've talked to the core of you. Yeah. You know? And I think it's so, I hope you share the story more. I think that...

52:32
There are so many women out there, and probably some men, and probably people in between, that would resonate with the feelings that you had, with the isolation of this relationship that you were in that you just couldn't get out of yet, and the fact that you were supposed to be happy because this new thing was coming into your life, and then you just lost the best thing of your life. Your grand, you know, and I, so much of your story that just makes it such a rich.

53:01
human experience that I hope that more people can hear your story. I mean, I hope a lot of people listen to the podcast. But you know, I think, I hope you're able to share it more, because I think there's nothing, there's no shame in any part of your story. So I don't think you need to worry about that. But I just thank you for allowing me to have this conversation with you. It's truly an honor. And I think that hopefully we can encourage more people to share the

53:29
quote unquote messiest parts of our lives, you know? Absolutely, Matt. Well, thank you so much for allowing me and giving me the space to tell it. You know, sometimes we just put those things away in a box and really bringing them out can encourage other people, can show people that you can make it and parts of your story can resonate with other people who might be going through similar things. So thank you. We're just human.

53:56
We're just trying to do the best we can with what we have at the moment. And sometimes we're not gonna make the right decisions and sometimes we are, and you know, and all of it ends up being right in the end, hopefully. That's right. You know, for our journey. So if people want to learn about your company, I know we didn't spend a lot of time talking about your company. That's not what the show is about, but if you wanna get in your orbit and learn more about your company or just see what's happening in your world or even just reach out to you because your story resonated in a certain way, is there a way to get ahold of you?

54:25
Yes, you can find me at the Diversity Movement. So it's the diversitymovement.com or find me on LinkedIn. I'd love to connect. All right. We will share those links in the show notes so people can connect with you. And I hope you hear from people that say, you know what? I had the same experience and this is how I felt, because I think it will help you in your journey as well, knowing, I know you know logically that lots of other people have had similar experiences, but sometimes we don't. Sometimes we do feel like this is our own isolated experience. So.

54:56
I just appreciate you. Thank you for just doing this and sharing. Thank you, Matt, for letting me share my story. I've really enjoyed our conversation. And I hope listeners have enjoyed your conversation. And what I will ask for this time is, if you resonated with something that Jackie has said, or you know someone that's going through something similar, why don't you share this episode with them, and maybe it will resonate with them and make them feel a little less alone. Because that's really the goal of this show,

55:26
least one set of ears can hear something that makes them feel like, okay, they're not alone in their circumstances. So thank you again, and I'll be back next week with a brand new episode of the Life Shift. See you later, Jackie.

55:53
For more information, please visit www.thelifeshiftpodcast.com