Building Pride: Embracing Identity and Belonging | Michael Kaye

00:00
I think there's a few factors. It's absolutely, part of it is definitely the bullying. I'm someone who I will remember every single negative thing anyone has ever said to me. I keep it locked in a little box in the back of my head, but I can point to someone, I even remember their name, who said something rude to me about my physical body when I was in seventh or eighth grade. I remember where I was. I was in the hallway of my school.

00:28
on the first floor, I remember how I felt in that moment. So I'm someone who it's really hard for me to forget words and then how I felt when hearing those words. So that's definitely one part of it. Another part of it is I, and everyone has a different journey in coming out and what happens afterwards. For me, it's been really challenging, even over all these years to relearn who I am.

00:57
you know, for so long, I wanted to be something else. And it's really hard for me to break out of that box completely. So when I think about the internalized homophobia that I have, the reason why I think I'm dealing with it is because there are so many moments where I'm in queer spaces that I don't feel comfortable. I do not feel like I fit in. I still feel like an outcast, which is really challenging because this is my community. So to feel othered.

01:27
with my straight friends and in straight spaces to also feel that to an extent in queer spaces is really hard. How I've tried to work through that is by showing up in these spaces time and time again and each year it gets easier and easier. You know, I mentioned that I didn't all my relationships stayed the same after coming out which I recognize is not a...

01:57
you know, that's not the norm. And I'm really, really blessed to have that experience. And after a few years, after I had come out, I thought, well, what am I doing as a person to help my community and the people who don't have this experience? On this week's episode, I speak with my guest, Michael Kaye. And Michael Kaye was a connection from a former guest, Cristina Marcello. And you might remember Cristina from their story about how a haircut really helped them to identify.

02:27
how they wanted the world to see them and really made them feel comfortable as themselves out in public, finally aligning the outside with the inside. I also just had a great follow-up bonus episode on the Patreon tier with Cristina, and I'm so thankful for them, for the continuous connection for the show and just really supporting what I am doing.

02:53
But this week's guest, Michael Kay, comes on the show to talk about the story of self-discovery and coming out as gay. And he shares his experiences growing up, always feeling a little different, and the challenges that he faced really accepting his true identity. We also discuss the impact of bullying and internalized homophobia that he has.

03:14
as well as the importance of creating spaces where LGBTQIA plus individuals can feel accepted and supported and kind of that's what he's doing now in both of his roles that you'll hear about in this episode. His story highlights the importance of embracing one's true identity, even in the face of societal expectations and those pressures. His work at Archer, which is a brand new dating app for queer men is a significant part of our conversation.

03:43
And throughout his role as the director of brand marketing and communications, he strives to make those connections and actually build a sense of community within this space. Before I get into the episode, I wanted to thank a couple of Patreon supporters that are supporting one episode a month on the special Patreon tier. So that would be Gale and Dream Vacations that is run by my friends Trapper and Shane. I'm so grateful for these individuals for sponsoring.

04:11
one episode a month. This sponsorship of this particular tier on the Patreon helps to support the production costs and any opportunities for new marketing and reaching out and just kind of growing the show. It's covering the costs of me producing this show, not the time, but the costs that I have to outlay each month. So thank you, and if you are interested in becoming a part of the Patreon community, there are tiers as low as $3.

04:39
I would love that. If you're interested, please go to patreon.com slash the life shift podcast.com. And now without further ado, let's jump into my conversation with Michael Kaye. I'm Matt Gilhooly and this is the life shift candid conversations about the pivotal moments that have changed lives forever.

05:08
Hello, my friends. Welcome to the Life Shift podcast. I am here with Michael Kaye. Hey, Michael. Hi, how are you? Well, we were talking before and I am quite warm. And as a podcaster, you can't really have fans on and air conditioners over here. So we're going to see how baked I am by the end of this episode. I will admit, as long as you keep this a secret between us too, I have AC somewhere in this room because I will not actually make it through.

05:36
Well, that's OK. You're a guest. You can do whatever you want. You know, I'm sure there'll be like some kind of sirens happening in the background and trucks and stuff driving by my house. So well, I'm in New York City, so this is a very quiet city. I wouldn't expect any background noise. You're right. I mean, it's it's very low key. Like not a lot of people travel in and out or just live there at all. Pretty, you're right. Pretty chill.

06:03
We have a mutual connection and a former guest of the LifeShift podcast, Christina. And they were like, you have to speak to Michael. So no pressure today. I I'm prepared. I'm ready for this. Okay. Well, and here's the thing. It's your story. And so, you know, when I started the LifeShift podcast, it really stemmed from my own experience as a child. When I was eight, my mom was killed in an accident and

06:32
my life, I mean, was never going to be what it was, because my parents were divorced, my dad lived in another state. It was very much like, oh my God, like, I have to start fresh now. And so no one knew how to help me out. And all that time, I was like, do other people have these significant moments in their lives where nothing is ever going to be the same again, because they've kind of either made the choice to do something or some kind of external force has happened.

07:01
Now, I'm in the 90s of people that I've talked to for this show. And it's amazing how we all have such different backgrounds and different experiences, but how many things we have in common, which is so cool because I think in the world today, we're always talking about our differences or they're telling us how different we are. But really, at the end of the day, there's a lot of commonalities, a lot more than there are differences. And so I'm excited to talk to you.

07:31
this podcast and the platform you've created is that, from my perspective, when I look at social media, and this is not a criticism because I absolutely love social media, but what people tend to project on those platforms makes people like myself feel very isolated in many different experiences because we're not talking about these deeper moments, these life changes, these...

07:59
pivotal times in our lives, but we all have some kind of moment or some kind of situation that has happened to us. And to your point, there's a lot that we have in common. Well, and this is a, I think, from my, I'm in my 40s now and growing up, life was very performative even before social media. It was very much, you know, like how great were your grades? What was your SAT score? What college did you get into? What jobs did you get?

08:28
Did you get promoted? And those were all the things that we talked about. But when we look a little bit deeper, there was probably a lot more going on that we can all relate to. And I think maybe now 2022, 2023, I think we're venturing into the state where there's a little bit more vulnerability shared. I don't think that we're necessarily in a lot of companies now. I don't think we're, I think we're bringing the love that we have into the-

08:57
into the space now and not leaving it at the door. I think there's just a little bit more happening. Not where it should be, but I think there's hope. I agree. You know, let's get into your story. I think it's helpful to the listeners to kind of understand maybe a little bit, kind of paint the picture of what your life was like leading up to this moment. So give us a little bit of insight into who you were, and then we can talk about that moment, and then go from there and see what we talk about. Absolutely. Well...

09:26
First, hello to everyone listening. My name is Michael Kaye and I'm a Capricorn, so I'm always gonna start with what I do for work because what else would I possibly talk about? So I'm the Director of Brand Marketing and Communications at Archer, which is a new dating app for queer men. And when Matt and I were chatting, leading up to today's recording, and I had to think about a pivotal moment in my life, the one moment that really stood out to me

09:56
was when I chose to come out, which is not gonna surprise anybody who's part of the LGBTQ plus community. So to take a step back, leading up to that, everyone tends to ask the same type of questions to anyone that they know who is queer. And one of those questions always happens to be, when did you know? It's, you know, the first question I tend to get from people and I wouldn't say I woke up one day and said,

10:25
Oh, I'm gay. And that was that. It was a lot longer of a journey, a lot more challenging and difficult. For me, if you asked me that question, the way I would answer is, in seventh grade, when I was at camp and I was a child, I remember looking at a male lifeguard at my camp and thinking, I feel something in my body that...

10:52
I don't know if I should be feeling towards someone of the same gender. So for some reason, decades later, that's always the moment that I pinpoint as the first part of my life or the first moment in my life where I felt othered or I felt different. And in terms of my sexuality, there had been several moments leading up to that where I felt different. So...

11:20
For background, I'm adopted. I was raised by my maternal grandparents. So there's one moment of feeling othered. When everyone in school went home to mom and dad, I went home to grandma and grandpa. The other point of feeling othered was I was raised Jewish. I grew up in a Jewish school and my biological dad was Puerto Rican, which meant I had a very different sounding last name.

11:50
than anybody went to school with. So the name was another part that was a really big issue to me. I was surrounded by a lot of cats and Cowan and Cohen and all these really Jewish sounding names. All my teachers were Israeli. So there were so many moments in my childhood where I knew is really evident how different I was. And that was always in relation to my

12:18
family dynamic, my ethnicity and race. And then as I got a little bit older into pre-teenage, it started to be about my sexuality. And that was when I started to hear, like the bullying began. It was, you're so gay, or other words that I personally am never going to say. And that continued throughout high school, that continued throughout college. I remember,

12:47
in high school all four years being bullied to an extent about being gay, people questioning my sexuality. And I remember going to a counselor in high school, someone who worked at my school, and they were really trying to prod me and prompt me to come out. And at the moment, it felt so invasive and so evil. And now looking back, I...

13:17
really understand that they were coming from such a genuine place and they knew that something had been, you know, buried deep inside me and I think they were trying to create a space between us to where I would feel really comfortable talking about this and they were they were doing their best to let me know that there is a whole group of people here to support me if this is the journey I choose to take and when I say choose I clearly don't mean...

13:45
choosing to be gay, I mean choosing to come out at that time. But it took me a while. I went throughout high school being closeted. I went throughout college being closeted. I didn't come out till I was almost 23 years old. So I had graduated college. It was the summer after I'd graduated. And I didn't come out till I was actually in my first relationship with a man. And it was...

14:11
with someone who knew going into it that I was closeted and there'd be certain things he would have to deal with as someone who's dating someone in the closet, but there was something about that relationship and how he handled me not being open that for the first time in my life it didn't scare me. I didn't feel different. I

14:39
almost overnight felt like this is no big deal. And I don't need to come out. I don't need to like run through the streets with rainbow flags. I told one person in my family, look who I'm dating, showed them a picture of me in the sky, told my friends who I was dating versus saying the words I'm gay. It actually took me a couple of years in hindsight to be comfortable with saying I'm gay, even after being in the relationship and being out.

15:09
I would say that today, it's almost 10 years-ish, about eight, nine years since coming out, I'm comfortable with who I am. I'm really proud to say I'm gay, but I still deal with internalized homophobia almost every single week. So I'm out, but it's still a journey. It's not like you come out and then it's all over. You describe your childhood with...

15:37
all these identities that are kind of like, you know, bumping heads. Did you feel in that moment, I know you said you felt kind of like othered, but did you feel that you were searching for a particular identity? Because I think as kids, we kind of like wanna navigate to a particular group, but you had all of these groups, if we wanna call them that. Do you feel like your whole upbringing, you were searching for that kind of home, if you will, in an identity space?

16:07
I think when I was growing up, I just wanted to be like everyone else. I remember asking my parents to help me find my biological parents. That was really important to me. I really wanted to change my last name, which ultimately I did, which I'm really happy that I did. And I remember a point where I wanted to become even more religious. And I think that was less of a...

16:37
it actually being a genuine interest of mine and me just wanting to mirror the people I was seeing every single day, which growing up in a Jewish school, it's gonna be a lot of Jewish people. And I'm still really proud to be Jewish, but I really was trying to force myself into this mold of those I saw around me. I mean, I think that's common, but a lot of us are kind of conditioned that this, we don't have to fight those particular buckets or groups or ways that we feel othered.

17:06
you know, in that space, I can imagine, I was talking to someone yesterday about how they grew up in like a Jehovah's Witness community in Sardinia, and all, you know, they played the role because they just didn't wanna stand out, but they knew they had to not be in that space because they didn't feel like they belonged. Did you have that sense? Or did you just, you just wanted to belong? Did you have a sense that like, I know this isn't me.

17:36
but I wanna do it because I don't want people to look at me as different. Yes, probably up until my mid-20s. It was, I feel like most of my life at this point because I'm only in my, I'm only 31. I came out at almost 20. Congrats. So it's alive. Thanks, really proud. So I would say obviously for most of my life, I forced myself to.

18:05
be something I wasn't to the best of my ability. You know, there's only so much we can do, but I remember in college, I would paint this picture in my head of what I assumed a straight person would be. And I did my best to dress that way, to act that way, to consume that type of media. I had no idea what the advocate was, what Queerty was, what Out Magazine was.

18:34
would never even look at those publications. I watched conservative news because that was the mindset I felt like I should be having. I went so far to distance myself from anybody that I knew was openly queer in college. I remember there was a gay guy who was adjacent to my close friend's group and I would never speak to him. I would avoid him.

19:02
definitely not talk to him in public. I just felt like if I got too close to anybody who was LGBTQIA+, there would be this assumption that Michael is talking to them. Michael is one of them. And at that point, it felt like the absolute worst case scenario.

19:23
Were your parents, your grandparents, your parents, I guess we'll call them, I think that's what they are, they raised you, were they, was there a condition? Did you hear like negative comments about gay people or anything like that growing up? I mean, I feel like that's also a product of the times as well, but were you taught that's bad? That's the interesting point. No.

19:52
A lot of the older people in my family are conservative. I will say that. But I also grew up in New York. It's a very progressive state. I grew up outside of New York City. My parents are city-born and raised. For anyone who knows the Jewish community, a common joke when I came out was like, oh, I'm sure your parents don't even care about that. They just want to make sure you're marrying Jewish, which was totally the question that when I first talked about my boyfriend to my mom, she was like,

20:20
Do you still want kids and is he Jewish? So like, I am really blessed that when I came out, I did not lose family, I did not lose friends. It didn't change any of the relationships in my life. It actually made them a lot better because for the first time ever, I can show up as my truest self. So no, there wasn't anything that happened in my household or was said in my household where I thought...

20:49
this was the worst thing to possibly be. It was in the media where I was taught that. It was every time I saw a show or a movie or a story on the news about a queer person, the story, the experience of that person was grounded in trauma and violence. I only saw stories about queer people coming out and being kicked out of their homes or beat into death or murder.

21:18
horrific, horrific stories. And that is what absolutely terrified me. So I had a lot of irrational fears that my life was going to change. I would end up alone. I would lose all my family. My friends would never speak to me. And that didn't happen at all.

21:40
Well, and you said that even to this day in some capacity, you have some kind of internalized homophobia. Do you think that was like beat into you from the bullies as well, that the bullying that you went into because of that? And like, why do you think it still exists if you're open and doing what you do for the world and creating connections for the world in your current role? Why do you think you still have that? I think there's a few factors. It's absolutely, part of it is definitely the bullying.

22:09
I'm someone who I will remember every single negative thing anyone has ever said to me. I keep it locked in a little box in the back of my head, but I can point to someone, I even remember their name, who said something rude to me about my physical body when I was in seventh or eighth grade. I remember where I was. I was in the hallway of my school on the first floor. I remember how I felt in that moment. So I'm someone who it's...

22:38
really hard for me to forget words and then how I felt when hearing those words. So that's definitely one part of it. Another part of it is I, and everyone has a different journey in coming out and what happens afterwards. For me, it's been really challenging even over all these years to relearn who I am. You know, for so long I wanted to be something else.

23:05
And it's really hard for me to break out of that box completely. So when I think about the internalized homophobia that I have, the reason why I think I'm dealing with it is because there are so many moments where I'm in queer spaces that I don't feel comfortable. I do not feel like I fit in. I still feel like an outcast, which is really challenging because this is my community. So to feel othered with.

23:33
my straight friends and in straight spaces, to also feel that to an extent in queer spaces is really hard. How I've tried to work through that is by showing up in these spaces time and time again. And each year, it gets easier and easier. You know, I mentioned that all my relationships stayed the same after coming out, which I recognize is not a, you know, that's not the norm.

24:03
And I'm really, really blessed to have that experience. And after a few years, after I had come out, I thought, well, what am I doing as a person to help my community and the people who don't have this experience? And I wound up on the board of the Human Rights Campaign where I volunteered for the past five years and that was, or for over five years. And that was my first experience in being surrounded by queer people in large spaces. And it was...

24:32
eye-opening and then I, you know, I came out in 2014. It wasn't until 2018, four years later, that I went to my first gay bar and that was really challenging to me. I remember tearing up when I was sitting there and it was, it wasn't out of discomfort. It wasn't out of anxiety or anything like that. It was, it was just so overwhelming to be in a space where so many people were like you. Still very different for me, but it was really powerful and

25:02
I mentioned at the beginning that I now work for Archer, which is a new dating app for queer men. And we just had, a couple of weeks ago, our first consumer event in Fire Island. And for anyone who knows, that's a huge gay mecca. And for the weeks leading up to the event, I was dealing with severe anxiety, probably more than I have in recent years, because I was just so anxious about being in a space with...

25:31
all these gay men and all I thought about was how uncomfortable I'm going to feel, how insecure I'm going to feel, how it's going to be a really bad experience for me. And it was so warm and welcoming and it was so powerful and such a great moment to be surrounded by my community that I think if I keep showing up in these spaces, I'm going to find my chosen family within the broader LGBTQ plus space. But

26:00
It's definitely a journey. You know, I think you're right. I think that when we put ourselves in those situations, despite anxiety, despite the feelings that we might have, we realize that, oh, none of the things that I worried about happened. And so maybe the next time you feel just a little bit safer, you know, safe is maybe not the right word, but you know what I'm saying? Like for your own self, like in the sense that, like you do belong, you are a piece of this.

26:29
You know, it's interesting to me, and I'm curious how you feel about this, is that you said that all the people that you had good relationships with, you maintained that when you came out to them. Do you feel that you were still you before and after? Or do you feel, because I think, you know, sometimes I think when people say something out loud that maybe they were hiding for a long time, there's more freedom to be a different way.

26:58
and therefore sometimes those relationships go by the wayside. Do you feel that your before and after were very similar? I do. I, there were definitely parts of me that I wouldn't speak about, but I do feel like there was, I think there are different versions of me. You know, I think they're both me at the core. Sure. I acted and behaved in a slightly different way prior, but I do still think it's me. And

27:27
Again, I am so lucky because I actually found this out recently that I, so for background, I'm still friends with all the people I lived with freshman year of college. We were all random roommates and we built such a strong friendship that, you know, we're friends now for over a decade. And that's, again, just another moment where I feel really blessed. And I found out recently that all these bro-y straight men that I am best friends with actually had a conversation.

27:57
about me freshman year. And in that conversation, it was, this kid is gay. He clearly does not know it. It is not our job to out him. It is our job to protect him at all costs for these next four years. So that's why I feel like it is the same me prior and after.

28:25
with some slight changes, but I think it's because I found myself surrounded by people who created a space where I could slowly be myself. Well, and they created a space where you could feel safe enough to do that and then, you know, slowly start to share with the world. Was there, you know, was there a trigger in which you like publicly, did you ever publicly tell or did you just...

28:54
like this is who I'm dating at the time. Was there ever like a public, more public coming out of sorts for you? No, I mean, surprising as someone who loves attention, I did not have some big coming out moment. I think- No parade? No parade. It actually took me years to participate in the parade, but now I can say I have walked a Pride parade, which was another great moment. But I think after so many years of...

29:24
me feeling ashamed and embarrassed and depressed and really angry about who I was, when I finally felt comfortable enough in acknowledging that I am who I am, I realized for me, I don't need to share that in any way. I am just like everybody else and straight people do not have to come out, so I'm absolutely not going to come out. And the way I did it was threw a photo up on my Facebook dating myself now.

29:53
My profile photo was my boyfriend and I. Oh yeah, yeah. My profile photo was my boyfriend and I. I put in a relationship, obviously it was with a man, and honestly I called it a day. And that was it. Well, truthfully, we, you know, we as people, we don't owe anyone anything. We can live, we should be able to live our lives in the way that we want to, no matter what we wanna do. As long as it's not hurting someone else or hurting ourselves, I think that...

30:23
you know, anyone, no one has to come out if they don't want to, if they can live authentically and just be like, yeah, it is what it is. That's where we should get to. Do you think that we're getting anywhere close to that? I do. And I see that in a lot of the rooms that I've been in with the human rights campaign. You know, I think volunteering with that organization has been...

30:51
so rewarding for me because I get to see the experiences of queer people at all generations. There are people that I've worked with in their 40s and 50s and 60s, and especially the people on the older side have talked about how they could not even come out in the workplace. They had to keep their relationships completely hidden. And even as someone who took a while to come out, that feels so foreign to me. Like I can't imagine.

31:19
hiding who I am within the workspace. And then on the reverse side, I'm also in the room with these pre-teens and teenagers who don't even feel the need to identify themselves because they don't want to be placed in a box. They will say, I'm non-binary or I'm pansexual, but that's not all of who I am. There's so much more to me than that. And it's almost like their identity is really important to them.

31:49
but it takes a backseat because they're not letting it define them as the only way to define themselves. So I do think we're getting to a space and I think it's really powerful to be at a moment in time where we get to see those two experiences because especially at a time when we're seeing anti-trans legislation, sweep the nation, anti-drag bans being introduced, it is powerful and important that we take a quick moment to recognize.

32:18
the progress that we have made while still acknowledging there's so much more work to be done. Yeah, I mean, how does anyone else's identity affect us? It doesn't. It does not at all. It's nobody's business. It's how I feel about conversations we get into around pronouns. Why is that such a trigger for some people? Personally, I don't care.

32:46
whatever you tell me you are, how you identify, what you wanna be called, great. Let's keep it moving. Yeah, well, welcome to Florida where legislation was just introduced that parents have to sign a permission slip with the name that their child wants to be called, even if it's like, my name is Matthew, but I wanna be called Matt. The teachers cannot call me Matt until my parents have signed a permission slip saying that that is allowed.

33:15
How do you feel about that? Yes, Matt and I were talking prior how I am coming to Florida next month and I'm nervous. Yeah, well, I wouldn't necessarily be nervous, but it's just interesting how there are moments in which in the grand scale, we feel progressive moving forward, but also at the same time.

33:44
things seem to be scaling back in other places as well. And at the end of the day, I was talking to our mutual friend, Christina, and they were like, we're just humans. We're all just trying to do the same thing here, right? We're trying to enjoy our experience on this planet, make it a little bit better, leave it better than when we came. And if we're not doing that, then you can talk to us. But none of the decisions about our identity, who we like.

34:13
any of those kind of things should matter, because they don't affect anyone but ourselves. Absolutely. I really just don't, it's challenging for me to wrap my head around, and again, this is probably a very different mindset that I would have had a decade or so ago, but it's sort of bizarre to me how angry people get about who people choose to share.

34:43
their life with or how they want to show up in a space, at work, in a room, wherever it is. I don't know if it's something that I'll ever fully, fully understand beyond the fact that I do think there's a group of people who feel threatened when...

35:07
there's change coming. And I understand that. I think change is scary for people, but I think it happens. We need to go with that. And this is a weird segue, but you are affecting change by what you're creating with Archer. And so how does your story play into why you're part of that and why you've created that? Yeah. So when I had graduated college,

35:37
I, the spring of 2014 was when I first started to hear about dating apps. And I was in a space in my life where I was slowly getting open to meeting other men. I did not want to do it out in the open in my hometown where people would see me. So I had no choice but to quote unquote come out on a dating app. And

36:06
For me, the obvious choices were gay dating apps. So I downloaded one of the biggest ones that's still around today. And all I saw on the platform was a lot of black squares, a lot of blank profiles, a lot of torso photos, or photos of other body parts. And it sounds silly now, but at that moment,

36:35
it was really traumatizing because I thought, here I am coming to a space built for my community and I have to hide myself in this space as well. Like I don't even feel welcomed here. And luckily I had heard about Tinder and I downloaded Tinder and started.

36:57
swiping as one does on Tinder and matched with a bunch of men and had a lot of conversations, but I was so nervous to actually meet up with them in person. And there was only one guy that I felt, something about him felt safe. And I decided to meet up with him and everyone who's online dating and single is absolutely going to hate me right now, but I'm still dating him over nine years later. So we are still together. Thank you Tinder.

37:25
Shout out, that's one of my favorite dating apps of all times now. But when we created Archer, the reason why we wanted to build a brand new dating app is because we felt all the biggest players in the gay dating space had been around for over a decade. There's been little to no innovation for this part of the queer community in years. So when we created Archer.

37:54
We created it today for today's daters. It has been built over the past year. We listened to a ton of queer men who are part of Gen Z, who are millennials. We actually interviewed over 1200 queer men leading up to the launch. We partnered with GLAAD. We built a group of community advocates, which are queer men from all different...

38:22
backgrounds in New York City, which is where we opened up first. And we really brought people in from the community to help shape what this app becomes. It's also, and I'm really proud to say this, the head of marketing, which is obviously me, so it's weird to talk about myself in a third person, but the head of marketing is an openly gay man. The head of product is an openly gay man. The head of data science is an openly gay man. There's so many people internally too.

38:51
who are part of the community, who have helped shape what this app has become. And what's different about Archer is that we don't want to be part of a, we don't wanna be an app that encourages anonymity or secrecy. We are leaning heavily into celebrating who we are. And the way we're doing that is, when you create a profile on Archer, you need...

39:20
to upload a photo of your face as your main profile photo. And we then selfie verify that along with every other photo that you upload. So when you open Archer, all you're ever gonna see is a sea of faces. Now, we know some of y'all wanna send some saucy photos and we don't wanna stop you from doing that. So we have private albums on the app. That's a space where you can do that. But when you're looking...

39:49
at our different views, you can choose from three different layouts. So you can do a zoomed out grid where you're probably looking for a hookup or a zoomed in grid or a linear layout which shows more robust profiles. But in all these views, you're only ever going to see face first, which is helping us also eliminate catfishes. Yeah. And I think it's allowing for those individuals that feel...

40:18
othered on other dating apps to find a space where one, it's safe and there are people that have similar needs, wants, desires, and you're starting with the real connection first, or in hopes of the quote unquote real connection, maybe the heart centered, the conversation centered. Is that true? Does that feel right?

40:45
Yeah, yeah. And you know, another thing that we're that we thought about is why are queer men turning to dating apps? And when at what point of their journey or their life are they are they turning to dating apps? And what we found through our research is that these are spaces where queer men feel comfortable building connections and creating.

41:12
relationships that go beyond romantic connection. So we've heard from a lot of people who have said, I'm moving to Florida or New York or Indiana or California, and I'm opening a gay dating app to find my chosen family so that I can feel safe in this new space. And we wanna make sure that we're giving them the tools to do that as well. So some of the features you'll see rolling out.

41:41
are really focused on community building and self-expression. Those features include group chats, so you can actually build a group of friends on the app and have conversation with each other, but also ways for you to self-express, whether that's through ephemeral content like stories and videos, or tags that help you self-identify. My tags on Archer are about...

42:07
RuPaul's Drag Race and spinning because I love SoulCycle and I love reading and people are using the tags to express how they self-identify and in time those tags will be searchable. So I'll be able to find other queer men who also wanna go to SoulCycle with me or maybe wanna have a book club or I sound like a mom or wanna watch Drag Race on Friday.

42:34
Okay, and then talk about it and then read a book about it. So it sounds like it's more, I mean, you have this, the dating aspect, but there's kind of like a social media community kind of component to it that is setting it apart as well. And I think, I mean, I think that's wonderful. Congratulations on your launch. I know it just, when was the official launch recently? Yes, we announced it in June for Pride Month and then it actually opened in the New York City area.

43:03
in late July and we just surpassed earlier this week 10,000 messages sent on Archer in only a couple of weeks. So people are loving it, they're chatting on it, and hopefully in a year from now we'll hear about friendships and relationships that started on Archer. But we're coming to LA soon, Washington DC, and you'll slowly start seeing us open up in

43:33
cities all across the country. That's awesome. You know, and to think, you know, to that seventh grader at camp and thinking about like that first feeling that you had to now and what you're creating for people that may have just had that first feeling, you know, in whatever part of their journey, maybe not, hopefully not seventh graders joining your app, but, you know, in a sense of like, there is a place for people to go to talk.

44:02
to like-minded folks, to not see media that is, you know, that created the version of you that was trying to run from that for a bit or to hide that as much as possible and deny that. And now you have this space where people can just be them and be comfortable being them. And that's really commendable because there's a lot of selfish people in the world and you're just putting it out there as, you know, like, let me help others because.

44:32
You know, you didn't have the easiest experience leading up to that. Yes, I would say I've also worked at OkCupid for those who don't know. I've been working at OkCupid since 2019 and it's such an inclusive platform. It was the first to expand gender and orientation options, first to introduce a pronouns feature. So I've always really loved my work with that brand and it's been so rewarding. But it's such a different feeling working.

45:02
on Archer and I've had a lot of these conversations internally. For those who know me know I cry at the drop of a hat. I am truly my mother's son. I remember I would come home and see her crying in her bedroom and I'm like, what's wrong? And she's like, I'm watching Oprah. And that's why I am with commercials and movies and everything. But there's been a lot of tears on my end shed internally leading up to the launch of Archer. And it's because it's...

45:31
To your point, it's amazing to look back and see where I was 20 years ago, how I felt about my identity and to now be leading marketing for a queer dating app and be so proud to be part of this work and to hear about, even this early on, the lives that were impacting within the queer community. It's just, it's truly amazing. And I've said it internally.

46:02
this app, had it been around 10 years ago, would have totally changed my life.

46:09
but you had Tinder, so that was good. It seems to have changed your life as well. But thank you Tinder. Yeah, yeah, that was a, yeah, I think, I don't think people listening that are on dating apps would be mad at you about when you said, people will be mad that I say this. I think that's amazing that you're still with that first person. I think when you know, you know. And when it feels right, it feels right. And if you feel, and more importantly, in your case, if you feel safe.

46:38
that's super important. If you feel safe to be who you are and bring all of you to the table, then it's good. You have a win. And I think it's really inspiring for people to hear that and to hear, because I feel like media and social media, I mean, there's a lot more inclusivity, but I still think there's a lot of negative stuff out there that people can still internalize as you did as a child.

47:07
And so the more that people like you create something like you're creating to create these safe spaces where people can feel seen, heard, I mean, with these tags and stuff, I think people have unique likes and wants and things they like to do that sometimes we are ashamed to put that out for some reason, but now you have this space where there are going to be people that connect on whatever. I don't know why you like spinning. That's terrible to me, but you know, I think.

47:37
It's my worst nightmare. I had to do it all during the pandemic, so I will never do that again. But, yeah, I think it's wonderful, because for so long, it seemed like you were longing to be in a part of a community, and you were absorbing the traits and the characteristics of whatever community you saw was most appropriate at that time, whether that was diving into Jewish culture and understanding the religion as much as possible, just so that you didn't stand out, or...

48:06
you know, identifying what the straightest man you could ever imagine looks like, and then portraying that, you have a space now where people can just be, you know? And how wonderful is that for people coming up now, Gen Z individuals that, you know, can just not have to face the performative nature that so many of us had to do and had to navigate, and still sometimes have to navigate.

48:33
as it relates to it. So kudos to you for what you're creating. I hope it blows up in the way that you want it to and in a most appropriate way. Sometimes if it blows up, you don't want it to be like, too crazy, but I think that you're curating it in a nice way that will really affect a lot of people. So congratulations to you, but also kudos to you for what you're doing. Thank you. And one thing I will add, and it came to mind as you were just talking, we talked a lot about

49:02
finding community and finding like-minded people. And as you were speaking, I had a moment of reflection where I realized, yes, you should be finding, you know, people who have similar hobbies and interests, but I also love that we're, at least me, and we're hopefully all getting to this place, we're in a moment where we can still show up as who we are.

49:32
in spaces where people are different than us. And I thought about it because I reflected back to my friends group and most of us are straight. There's only me and one other person who came out after college, but me and that other gay person still get to show up as our true selves. We get to be as flamboyant as we possibly want to in this group of people. And it's actually funny now that every time we're all together and we're...

50:01
drinking or hanging out and playing music. It's usually a few songs into this like hangout sesh that the music all shifts to like RuPaul's Drag Race and Celine Dion and Jennifer Lopez and Taylor Swift and our group just runs with it now and we don't even have to be the ones to put it on at this point, they just play it for us. But also find those communities of people where you have a ton of differences but you still get to show what your differences are and have people who will.

50:30
acknowledge your differences, but really celebrate your differences too. Respect the fact that we're all different people, you know, and that's okay. That's a good thing. We don't want to all be the same. And, you know, I agree. I think that we should just show up and love the people around us. It doesn't matter how they want to identify. It doesn't matter what they want to be called. That's what they want to be called, you know. And so...

50:56
I think we need to lean more into that. And I think we are. I think there's a lot of us that are just kind of like, live your life. It's hard enough on, you know, without all of these limitations that we're kind of self-imposing on us. So, you know, I appreciate that you shared this story. If you could go back to that seventh grader at camp, knowing what you know now, knowing this experience that you had, is there anything that you would want to say to him after he had that thought that popped in his head?

51:26
I, if I could speak to my younger self, I would encourage him to feel comfortable being who he truly is, but I would still encourage him to come to terms with that when he feels most comfortable. I, I do wish it was, I do wish it happened earlier, but I'm also not someone who likes to reflect on the past and I really do not like to regret.

51:55
I like to just live in the moment and look forward. You know, I just wish sometimes that it happened a little bit earlier. And I wish there weren't so many moments in my life that I just felt so broken down and empty. But that also encourages me to just live life so much better now and not be apologetic about who I am, which I'm absolutely.

52:25
Well, and I think there is something to be said, and maybe those of us that have experienced some kind of trauma, we understand that our journey was our journey in the way that it was supposed to be, and those moments actually made this version, right? And so, you know, maybe had you come to terms, if we want to call it that, with who you were, you know, accepting of who you were earlier, maybe you wouldn't be doing what you're doing now.

52:54
maybe you would have gone down a different path. And so, and I think a lot of those moments serve us really well if we have at least, you know, had enough awareness and reflection time to look back on them in a positive way and seeing how they've formed the current human that exists in the world. Yeah, maybe I needed that time. I mean, I don't know, I'm not gonna tell you. I know I look back on my experience.

53:21
I'd never wish this on an eight-year-old kid that his mom died. I would never wish this on someone else. But at the same time, I'm grateful for the experiences that this long grief journey and whatnot has given me. And so I wouldn't go back and change things, as terrible as that might sound, because I wouldn't be this version of Matt sitting here, being able to talk to all these people about your amazing stories and the things that you bring to the world and the way you inspire other people.

53:51
And so, you know, as hard as it is to say, I'm grateful for the journey. And so that's why I brought that up. I love that. How can people connect with you or find you or be in your orbit? Or is that something you don't want? How can people reach out to you? So you can find me at Michael KPR on Instagram, threads, TikTok. Although I'll be honest, I don't post on TikTok. I'm not cool enough.

54:19
I just watch all your videos. But yeah, you can connect with me there. Happy to answer any questions. And then in true Capricorn forum, I clearly have PR in my handle, what I do day to day. So just always about work.

54:39
And you never know. Someone might be listening to this and feeling as you did as a child, and maybe they just want to say, hey, you know, you helped me look at things in a different way, or, you know, my goal really with this show is that each episode finds the ears that really needed to hear it at that moment. But what I'm finding is that people are resonating with stories that are not even remotely, like, similar on the surface. It's something you said in the way that you talk about your journey.

55:07
that really resonates with them and makes that connection. So I know for a fact that your episode will do that with our goal of at least one person, but there'll be many people that can resonate with your story. So I appreciate you sharing it today. I'm happy to, and I hope so. And if anyone's listening who has a similar journey and you're feeling alone, just know you're not alone. And I am always happy to be part of your chosen.

55:35
Well, thank you again. And those of you listening, if you are enjoying the show, I'm not going to ask for ratings this time. I'm going to ask you to share your favorite episode with someone because word of mouth seems to be the best for us indie podcasters out here doing it all. So thank you very much again, Michael. And I will be back next week with a brand new episode of the Lifeshift Podcast.

56:07
For more information, please visit www.thelifeshiftpodcast.com