When Podcasting Starts Changing You | A Live Conversation on Storytelling and Hosting

Matt Gilhooly (00:01) On December 18th, I did my very first livestream on Riverside with Angela Hallowell, and somehow we made it through and it wasn't a total dumpster fire, which totally feels like a win for me. Angela is a creator of Please Hustle Responsibly Newsletter and the host of Honey and Hustle podcast. And on those, she spotlights North Carolina founders, creators, and nonprofit leaders with this level of care and specificity that I honestly admire. In this live stream, we talked about why we started our shows in the first place, what makes us keep going after we've realized how much work it actually takes and how podcasting can feel like this kind of strange mix of oral history, community building and accidental therapy. We also get into the behind the scenes stuff, like how we prep for our interviews, how we create these safe spaces for guests to share their real stories and Really how our styles are completely different, but still deeply intentional. Angela shared how her newsletter has become kind of an ongoing conversation with her listeners. And we talked about the hosting learning curve, everything from pacing to building rapport before hitting record, to letting the conversation breathe without forcing it to follow a script. And somewhere in the middle of all that I ended up saying the quiet part out loud. which is that podcasting has changed me. It's softened me. It's made me more forgiving of myself. And as weird as it is to admit, it might be the best thing I've ever done for myself. If you were there live, thank you. If you are watching or listening to the replay, I hope that something in it reminds you that there is more than one right way to tell a story and you do not have to do it perfectly for it to matter. Angela Hollowell (01:49) I'll go ahead and introduce myself for the people that don't know me and let Matt introduce himself as well. Hey everybody. My name is Angela Hollowell. I write the Please Hustle Responsibly newsletter, which is a companion newsletter to my podcast Honey and Hustle. Matt Gilhooly (01:54) Yeah, for sure. Angela Hollowell (02:05) where I host interviews with North Carolina's founders, creators, and nonprofit leaders. Matt Gilhooly (02:11) should say that your newsletter, you're like on fire because you started this year with like 600 and something subscribers. See, I read or listened you're almost triple that. So congratulations on that. That's a big feat. And I know that newsletters were super important for you as a storyteller and as a Angela Hollowell (02:25) Yeah. Matt Gilhooly (02:36) information sharer. So good on you for making that happen in 119 posts or newsletters. See, I listen. And that was earlier today. Anyway, hey, everyone, I am Maculhuli and I am the creator of the LifeShift podcast and all the things that come along with it because I can't stop creating. I also work in nine to five in marketing for mortgage technology company and Angela Hollowell (02:42) Yeah. Yeah. Matt Gilhooly (03:02) the show really started as a, like a class assignment. And now here I am, I just recorded episode 238. And the show is all about helping share these pivotal moments that have changed people's lives from one second to the next. And so each conversation leads up to this like paints the before picture of someone. And then we talk about this life shift moment. And most of the time in the conversation, we're talking about how as humans, we evolve and grow from these really hard moments or really great moments. And all my goal really is just that there are people out there that are going through circumstances, and they feel really alone in those particular circumstances. And what I want is people to listen and feel like, I'm not the only one going through this. This is something that that I can move forward with, or I feel inspired to do this because so and so did it. And so it's just been this journey that I never could have predicted for myself. You know, we'll talk a little bit about our whys, but man, the power of storytelling is just so beautiful and how lucky are we to help other people share their stories in our own unique ways. just super jazz that we have some of our friends here chatting with us. Hey, Frank, just so everyone knows, this is my first time live streaming. If I'm a dumpster fire, that's why. So shout out to me. Angela Hollowell (04:31) This is great. Thank you so much Frank for joining. I'm excited to see all of you guys in the chat. Matt touched on his why a little bit, but I wanted to kind of rewind and maybe talk about how we both got into hosting an interview based podcast and maybe why we kept going after we saw the amount of work that it was. So I started Honey and Hustle as Matt Gilhooly (04:46) Yeah, for sure. Angela Hollowell (04:56) A pandemic podcast I started in March of 2020, just as the world was shutting down. And I started it because I saw just the literal depth of change that happened when I moved from Alabama to North Carolina and the sheer amount of people that I was able to talk with and learn from who were full-time entrepreneurs. It's not to say that Alabama doesn't have full-time entrepreneurs, but there are a lot fewer and farther in between. a lot of them are not. attending networking events, they're working in their business, right? So really wanted to have a platform where I could reach people with these stories because intrinsically, I just don't feel like it should matter where you live in terms of the access that you have to stories that are gonna help you live the life that you wanna live, grow the business that you wanna have and create the things that you wanna make. And so that was kind of the premise for Honey and Hustle. ⁓ The first season was all North Carolina entrepreneurs, terrible audio, great stories, great time. And, and glad I'm not alone in and I really just, you know, was getting my legs under me. had never really interviewed people at that scale. I had never produced a show like that before. and really didn't have the audio gear and video gear necessary to do a long form interview style show like that. So. Matt Gilhooly (05:58) We've all been there. Angela Hollowell (06:19) It was a lot of learning. think I kept going because even though, you know, it during the pandemic and I did have to shift to doing virtual interviews, I realized that I was really energized by these stories. It was a chance for me to learn. It was a chance for me to meet people I'd never met before that were going through some of the things that I was going through at the time. I went full time in entrepreneurship shortly after I started the show in May of 2020. and that there was so much I had to learn so much. I was like, I know if I had these questions, somebody else is going to have these questions. And I want this to be a show where people, one feel comfortable sharing the good and the bad of being your own boss and starting a business. but also share the things that maybe don't make it onto a magazine spread or a top 10, you know, best businesses in North Carolina list. Um, let's talk about the times where you almost failed. Let's talk about the times that. You had to make a difficult decision and you had to learn something new. Let's talk about your first hire. I think that has been kind of the ongoing push for me to tell stories about North Carolina founders that don't always make the, North Carolina is the best state for business. Yeah, but who is making it the best state for business? Who are these business owners and what is working for them? So thank you guys so much for joining. Matt Gilhooly (07:34) what I think is beautiful about what you do. And it's so it's such the antithesis of people that kind of start podcasts. I think a lot of people start podcasts, they want to be like the next Joe Rogan, they want to, I'm just going to get on the mic, and I'm going to talk about everything. But yours is like, so specifically, local. And I love that you keep it that way. And it has a totally different draw and You know, and it's so focused, which probably allows you to keep that why really strong and feels like a community more so than like I'm broadcast, you are broadcasting to the entire world, but you are focused on a subset of people. And, you know, I love that. I think about it a lot. Mine is more global. Like I will talk to anyone around the world, because my specific show is about their own personal journeys, which has been a challenge in itself, but a really great challenge. So During the pandemic, as one does, I was super bored and I got a second master's degree. And in this version of this master's degree, I decided to take classes that scared me. so podcasting was one. And I went into this class thinking, what are you going to talk about, Matt? Like, basically I didn't know what I was going to talk about and what was going to be important. And little did I know it was going to be a life-changing journey in itself, like a life shift, if you will. So the podcast started as two episode assignment. And by the end of that class, I had nine episodes released into the world before even the final exam came about. And the show premise exists because when I was eight years old, my dad had to sit me down to tell me that my mom had been killed in a motorcycle accident. And because of the time period, I didn't have the tools to grieve. My dad didn't have the tools to grieve. And so I pushed it down. And that younger version of me all the way up into like nearly my 30s wondered, do other people have these life-shifting moments in which from one second to the next, everything is different? And so when I started it, I called on friends that I knew so that I could, because I kind of knew their story and we wanted to unpack it. And I wanted to see if I could even ask them the questions and give myself permission to forget questions and not feel like I have to be prepared all the time, but rather Can I do the things I didn't do as a teenager or a young adult where I knew there were certain questions you're not supposed to ask or you should only ask the questions that end with a yes or something like that? And so I leaned into the curiosity. I leaned into being comfortable asking a question that might get shut down, that might get, you know, I can't answer that question or I disagree completely. And all of these were so... so great for me because it gave me such a growth journey. anyway, I talk about lots of topics that are really hard, things that maybe people are sharing for the first time. And it's just such an honor that people trust me enough to have those conversations and get something out because I do know there are people that are going through something very similar across the world. They're not We think we're the only ones going through it and where no one can understand, but there are people out there that have gone through similar things, both good and bad. And so that's just been my whole goal. But as you said, it's a lot of work, My first problem was that everyone is a guru. If you Google how do I podcast properly? And there's like 10 ways to be a great podcaster and then the next one is 10 conflicting ways to be a great podcaster. And so that was really challenging for someone that just wanted to be good at it and wanted to kind of follow through. Where I got better at it was when I stopped listening to the gurus and really made my own journey. But my why is just so strong knowing that eight year old version of me would have loved to hear some of these conversations seeing adults that have kind of made it through something difficult or really inspiring or whatever it may be. don't just talk sad things, but you know, I, I graphite towards that because that is my own journey. So, that keeps me going, but it is, I mean, if anyone has not started their own podcast, I would say I spend about 10, 15 hours per episode, you know, getting all the work from beginning where the pitch is coming in to recording, to editing, to, marketing it at the end and sharing. clips and all those things. And so, you know, it's not for someone that has no time. It's it's it you have if you want to do it right, and you want to present these stories in the way that they should be presented. You have to have a strong why and you have to kind of go into it knowing like this is all worth it. Because what if that one person that was just felt so alone, hears someone's episode and it's like, Okay, I can move forward now. Like we win like that. That is my it sounds like a silly goal like one person hearing it. But if we can change that one person, maybe it's like that ripple effect. Maybe they can help someone else. So it's been a lot of work. I just recorded episode 238, which is for March. So I'm like super far ahead, which Angela might be a little bit jealous about. I wouldn't trade this for the world. It's just such Such a pleasure and honor. Angela Hollowell (12:57) I want to address a couple of things. One, feels like podcasting isn't talked about enough. It's like this beautiful merger of like oral history traditions with like archival work. the fact that every person that appears on your podcast all the way up to 238 in March is going to have a place on the internet where their story lives. It's like super beautiful and they can always reference that. Matt Gilhooly (13:19) Hmm. Angela Hollowell (13:23) in terms of maybe even looking back to see how far they've grown from that experience and just like sharing that so publicly. But also for other people to reference, you know, it's like, somebody gone through this? ⁓ they have. Here's a story about it. I may never meet this person physically, but their story now lives with me and that's awesome. ⁓ Matt Gilhooly (13:30) Yeah. Well, and me too, just as hosts, we get to talk to these people that we probably never would have bumped into in the world, you know, and now we get to hold that. And it's a healing journey that I never knew I needed. I say it all the time on episodes, because it's like you hear this story and you're like, ⁓ that resonates with me. Or, you know, I had a conversation in which the guest shared something that validated something I thought was weird that I did as a teenager, and it like unleashed. Like it let go of that shame and the thing. So you never know how someone's story is going to affect you even as a host and you or a guest. mean, Frank is asking, have you been a guest on a show? Angela, you've been a guest. Yeah. Angela Hollowell (14:20) I've been in a couple shows. I think as someone who maybe goes on shows to talk about less personal things and more like business oriented things, my experience might be a little bit different. Have people asked me personal questions still? And I think for me, some of it was like understanding what parts of my story like I was comfortable telling and how to tell them in a way that's like beneficial. Like I don't necessarily cut myself off in an effort to be super concise and like, you know, talking point driven or anything like that. But I do try to like not start from like the beginning of my entire being when asked a question. it was just like an effort in like, okay, how do I share my story? What does that sound like actually? What parts of my story are resonating with people? Matt Gilhooly (14:54) Right. think you're calling me out. Mm-hmm. Angela Hollowell (15:15) What parts of my story do I shy away from because they make me uncomfortable to admit that maybe I'm not perfect or I did something wrong or I felt like I made a mistake or I was going through a rough time. But often now I'm way more comfortable getting to a place of just like being honest. Like I love that I'm seeing all these posts on internet that are like next time somebody asks me how I'm doing, I'm going to be honest about it. And Matt did ask me how I was doing today and I was completely honest about it. Matt Gilhooly (15:33) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Angela Hollowell (15:44) learning to apply that with being a podcast guest as well. Like it's, don't have to act like I'm outside of my entire life once I enter this show. Like this is a part of my life and that's okay too. yeah. Matt Gilhooly (15:57) I agree. I've been on I think probably like 30 plus shows now. And I think this kind of leads into the idea of the power of storytelling as a guest on another show. I try not to show up as a podcaster because I don't want to think that way. Everyone has their own way of podcasting. So that's probably the hardest part for me is to show up and release some of that. control because I'm not in control and I'm usually in control of that. But what I found is that my story continues to evolve. Because if we're lucky enough as humans, we have the ability to reflect on what's happened in an honest way in our lives and see how certain things served us and, and certain things maybe pushed us away from our true being and whatever, you know, happens. So if I go back and listen to like the first podcast I was on, the way I told the story about losing my mother and the struggle of grief for 20 plus years and then how that really informed how I approached losing my grandmother and the benefits that came from the really crappy journey. It's really kind of opened my eyes to like different nuances in the story and made me think about like, ⁓ wow, like one thing that happened for me that I realized in this podcasting journey, I don't remember exactly where, but at some point with all these conversations, I was talking on another show and I realized that so many of the decisions that I made growing up were out of fear of abandonment. And I had never really pieced that together before sharing my story so much because I think when you talk to your parents about your story or you talk to your friends about your story, normally will interject with how they saw it or their opinion of the particular moment. Whereas when you're on another show, you have this freedom to of share how you saw it because that is your truth, right? And so I it's such a pleasure to be a part of that. And like you said earlier, just put that story out there into the world. But I bet you if you listen to the first couple appearances that I had on podcasts to now, when I do it, you'll see a difference, you'll see there's more nuance in my story and more understanding of my story. So I mean, bring it on. I love being a guest. But I love I love holding this space, you know, as Angela Hollowell (18:20) You Matt Gilhooly (18:23) Mars, you you came on the show and you, you just noted in here that you spoke about being non binary, like out loud. And I feel like there was power in that because I remember around the time you were you kind of shared the video on LinkedIn, or you shared a clip of it on LinkedIn. And, and I think it gave you a little bit more power, I might be putting words in your mouth, but I hope not. But it's so it's just important to listen, right? And And that's all it is. If you're listening, then you're not, well, I used to listen for the silences to come up with something to say. And now I'm listening so that I can react or ask a question or go deeper or go down the tangent that they wanted to go down because that's way more important than sounding smart with my next question or sounding like, I did all my research when that's not how we as humans connect. It's not, I'm not here to inflate your ego. I'm here to like figure out. who you are and what you bring to the world and what can we help other people with. Angela Hollowell (19:28) two things here that I wanted to note that I'm not sure where we are in our little schedule, but ⁓ I wanted to talk about Mars's question about how we create safe spaces for our guests to share vulnerable stories. And you can touch on it with the listening, but I also think we wanted to talk about how we prep for an interview because I think that's changed for both of us throughout our journey. When I first started, I again had never hosted anything before, was completely new to hosting and did some research but didn't want people to feel like I had a list of questions and that was all we were gonna talk about. And once they got done answering a question, I was gonna move on to the next one without asking deeper questions. So I would come for the interview with just myself, like nothing written down or prepared. And I would be listening so intently. Matt Gilhooly (20:15) You Angela Hollowell (20:24) And as they were talking, I would have a question for them. But then by the time they got to the end of an answer, I'd be like, crap, what's my question? So there were times I would like visibly just like forget my question. Not a good practice for an interview host. It doesn't help the flow of the conversation. Because sometimes like having like just listening to like ask the next question just really takes you out of the conversation itself, which again, as Matt said, like, that's not how we connect. That's not how we would naturally engage with a person. We would just have a conversation with them. ⁓ And so it took me a minute to really kind of get to a place where I could come with research, come prepared with certain questions, but also be open to the flow of the conversation and be okay with leaving a question behind if it didn't fit the flow of the conversation. think Matt is probably a little bit different because he started it for a class. So he was like, I have these things I need to talk about. And then he was like, forget that. Yeah Matt Gilhooly (21:20) I'm the opposite. And it I think it just depends your show has a different angle. There are certain things that you want to get out of your guests. For me. I don't have like, there's not a certain thing that I want to get out of my guests besides centering the conversation around a life shift moment, a pivotal moment that we feel really changed us the most. So yes, I started with questions because that was required. So my first two episodes have questions. Angela Hollowell (21:30) Yeah. Matt Gilhooly (21:48) And then what I found is I wasn't listening. I was just listening for, you know, the next silence to go to my next question. And the biggest gift I gave myself was to allow myself to forget the question, which was the opposite for you, where you were like, crap, I forgot my question. So that's good for me, because we all get trapped in that. And if the conversation takes itself in a different place for my show, I want to go there because I think that's where the universe wanted to take that conversation and where the guest is feeling the most comfortable and it kind of goes in that space. weaving in how to create safe space, a lot of it comes from being willing as a host to be vulnerable, to be wrong, to be flawed. my 40s now, I've learned that I show up much better if I know. all the flaws and I can share those willingly and not worry that other people are like, you're not perfect or whatever. And so I do lead into these conversations with just being vulnerable. Like, I, you know, someone's talking about some grand thing and I'm like, I just don't understand. Like, this is how I broke things when I was, you know, this particular age. And I think that just kind of opens the door that we are having a conversation, we are trying to get to know each other as humans. And Growing up, at least for me in society, I was taught that we weren't supposed to talk about certain things. We were only supposed to talk about the good things. were brushing everything else under the rug. And I think a lot of people were taught that. And so I want to kind of break that as much as I can to make it safe to be wrong. Because what is wrong? It's just a different way of doing something as it relates to living as a human being. you know, I just tried to come in with full honesty. Anyway, that was to answer your question Mars of like trying to just be there and go and be willing to go wherever it goes. But as far as prep goes, I now you can tell everyone it's okay. I don't do any prep. So I have pitches that I go through, I go back and forth kind of like making sure that we have this life shift moment. Person fills out the form, the form has that life shift moment on it. So we're aware that there is one and we're gonna talk about that. And I look at that about five minutes before every recording, because I wanna come in without a plan. I wanna come in with my curiosity, my life experience and being willing to ask those questions from my perspective and just let that guest story come out the way that it needs to come out. So I'm like legit the opposite of you, Angela, of like prep work. And I always apologize to the guests ahead of time. I'm like, I don't do the research because I don't want to know. I'm very type A. If I knew, that's all we're going to talk about. Angela Hollowell (24:45) That is hilarious, but you do have a form though. I think that's still a form of research even if you don't use it extensively. Like I think it's something. ⁓ I think in terms of like prep, I can be literally ridiculous. I do sometimes watch movies, like interviews that they've done. And I do read things that they've written. Like if they have any kind of media, I try to go out there see what it is. Some business owners don't, some do. Like 9th Wonder who's been documented. Matt Gilhooly (24:51) Yeah. Angela Hollowell (25:16) way more than most people probably. and has a very public profile, even though he is kind of incognito here in North Carolina, but, someone might, yeah, cool. You know, you know, had to put that in there, Morris. but I also think in terms of prep, one thing that I'm noticing is that there's no amount of prep that can prepare you for like the things that are going to come out of you during an interview. Like I think you talked about showing up honestly and willing to be vulnerable. willing to be wrong, willing to ask curious questions. think for me, having the newsletter has almost given my podcast like this comment section and people will share more with me. They'll respond to my newsletter and say, Hey, I listened to your last episode and blah, blah. what has come out of that is almost this two way conversation where now I'm not just posting an episode and sharing it to social media and hoping someone tells me how I'm doing or leads me to a review. Now it's like I'm Matt Gilhooly (25:53) Hmm. Angela Hollowell (26:10) posting an episode and I'm sharing it in my newsletter and people are like, ⁓ she just emailed me. I listened to that. Let me respond to her and tell her what I thought. And a lot of the feedback that I'm getting is that people are really drawn to the episodes that like you and I did that I did with Michelle that I do with other people who I'm interviewing that they feel like they got to know me more, not necessarily the other guests. And so while having a guest is great, what they care about is learning about me because I guess now after Matt Gilhooly (26:30) Mm-hmm. Angela Hollowell (26:39) five, almost six years, people are like, ⁓ I'm listening to this show for the host. Everybody else is extra and that's great. But I like the host and I want to learn more about the host and why she feels like this is a good person to have on the show. What parts of her connect with this person and what parts of her may be a reflection of maybe some things I'm going on going through right now. And that has been just like a very interesting trajectory of the show and trajectory of like my experience as a host now. Even some episodes where I was like, oh, I shared a lot about myself. that is I'm like going through an editing to phrase question. I do edit my interviews as I'm going through my, oh, wow, I shared a lot. I don't know if I overshared there, but at least I structured my oversharing. So within the conversation, so it's fine. No, but I think to your point, like that's how I would normally engage in a conversation. I wouldn't slowly. Oh, this person just shared something vulnerable with me. Matt Gilhooly (27:27) did not overshare. Angela Hollowell (27:37) Let me move on to the next question. would say, well, you know what? Actually, I've been through a similar situation and this is how I felt about it. So you know what I mean? And you would keep going down that rabbit hole to where you felt satisfied. you know, creating a safe space. I would love to believe that it's this mythical magical thing. But the reality is I think when I'm listening to other hosts and when I'm studying other hosts that I wanted to emulate, like same low and people like that, you know, they do the same thing. Matt Gilhooly (27:42) Yeah. Yeah. Angela Hollowell (28:05) They open up about being a fan of something. They open up about a childhood experience that connects them to that same feeling that their guests just expressed. ⁓ They open up about their nerdy tendencies and the things that they enjoy that bring them together. I think that is kind of a hallmark of Honey and Hustle a little bit, because again, it does have a little more structure because I am trying to get certain things out of people. But what brings me and intrigues me about these guests is their interest in business, you know. not have a shared interest in that. And I think the more I can share that from different perspectives and different angles, the better it's going to be and the more comfortable people will be. And I know that there are some guests that do research the show before they come on. it's also like, hosting is also like an audition of like, what other people are going to expect when they're guests. It's like, what kind of host is she? Does she feel stiff? Does she feel like someone I can talk to? Does she feel like someone I can be comfortable with? And I want people to feel that way. So. Matt Gilhooly (28:48) That's nice. Yeah, I think that that just shows like the way you describe what you do the way I describe what I do is that like we can create our own journeys as podcasters. There's not one right way to do it. And I think sometimes people think that and it's not true. mean, Frank reviews like independent podcasts all the time. And all of them are so different. And he's able to see that like, all these people are leaning into their wise and really celebrating that and bringing their own uniqueness to the world instead of copying someone else. And I think there's a nice freedom in that. And it's like, I don't know about you, but the podcasting industry has been the most collaborative group of people that I've ever encountered. You don't feel competitive at all. Like everyone like, hey, I don't know how to do this. Anyone have any ideas? And like, 20 people are chiming in saying, here's what I did. I don't know if it'll work for you. But here's what I did. you know, and I think it's so beautiful or like we're not gatekeeping anything because we all know what it's like and how it feels when you get it right when it feels right. So I love that just us talking shows that our shows are wildly different in the way we handle them. But they're still, you know, out there every time we publish and it's the way we do I see Frank's question. I edit. But I've relinquished some control there. So I finally have outsourced some help on editing my podcast. Because I do work a nine to five, you know, Monday through Friday. So in order to keep up with these important stories, I had to let go of some control. And it's been nice to have my weekends back. that's what I do these days. But I did do the first 215 episodes or so myself. Yeah, kind of have to, right? Angela Hollowell (30:55) Yeah, I will say I have outsourced editing before, but as of right now it's back in my hands. I think part of it is that I wanted to craft a new way forward with the show. I didn't want it to feel like every other show, like the first set of editors that I had on retainer, they like gave me a show that I felt like was everybody else's show and they gave me clips from the show. And I was like, okay, well, I can keep doing that or I can create a video podcast on, my own terms, ⁓ as evidenced by Frank. So he said he listened to two of my first one with Michelle about threads. That was about 16 minutes. ⁓ Matt Gilhooly (31:19) Mm-hmm. He Angela Hollowell (31:38) another with Michelle Jackson that was nearly two hours, both shows, but wildly disparate in length. Yes, I can address that. One, when I talk to Michelle Thames, she's in Chicago. That is actually her preferred style. When I asked her about me on my show, she's like, hey, I noticed your show is roughly around 30 to 45 minutes on average. I don't do that. I only want to be on a shorter show. And I was like, okay, that's interesting. And when I got around the show, it was like very quick answers, very concise answers. there's maybe even an argument that maybe I shouldn't have published that because it's not in line with some of my other ones. But I've done some solo episodes that are shorter, that are like less than 20 minutes. So I felt comfortable with it. I guess in that sense when I edited it, was just more concerned about clarity if we stayed on topic, which I feel like we did. With Michelle. Me and Michelle know each other extremely well. We go live on Substack every week. I'm not doing it this week. We're taking a holiday break, so we'll be back after MLK Day. But me and Michelle, know each other really, really well. And we just went down all these different rabbit holes and personal stories and personal experiences. And we knew how to pull that out of each other, because that's how we would actually talk. It was actually a Matt Gilhooly (32:54) Right. Angela Hollowell (32:58) over two hours when we recorded it and I edited it down to I think like an hour 45, which is still fairly long, but that's what I felt was a good representation of our conversation. And yeah, I think that is, I think our episode was over an hour, the one we did together. So. Matt Gilhooly (33:04) Yeah. Mm hmm. Well, you can't shut me up. So that's that's the thing. I am like for when you said that and if a guest told me like they only do 15, I would say then for me, I would not do that because I can't I can't really get as deep as I need to or want to in those episodes that are that people want to dictate how they go. So book it on you. Angela Hollowell (33:28) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and again, that was an interesting one. ⁓ And I had I known that before we hit record, I maybe wouldn't have said yes, but she did actually asked me I met her at podcast movement evolutions in Chicago. That's where she lives. And so yeah, so she had asked me and I had done some research on her show and I knew her show was shorter. But if you're coming on my show, I don't feel that I have to be constrained by a shorter timeframe. ⁓ Matt Gilhooly (34:03) I Angela Hollowell (34:04) But again, I mean, it's one of those shows where it's like, if Frank listens to this, does he feel like he really got to know me as a host in 16 minutes? Is that a really a good representation of the show? Maybe not our best one. Do I still feel like it was good? Yes, I think it was fine. I think sometimes what I've come to the conclusion about is that as long as I feel like is valuable, I'll put it out there. You know, I can always unpublish it later, but I felt good about Matt Gilhooly (34:17) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Angela Hollowell (34:30) value that it brought and the topic I really wanted to talk about threads. think that's a really interesting space right now. Matt Gilhooly (34:35) bit curious to like kind of venture into do you pitch your guests like do you reach out and find guests because my process has been wild and crazy and really kind of irresponsible of me but also like fantastic problem to have so I don't know if you want me to talk or you Angela Hollowell (34:52) Yeah. ⁓ I can go into it since we are talking about this because they actually came onto the show in two different ways. so Michelle actually, well, no, actually I think they came on similar way, but it's an unusual, unusual way for people to come on my show actually. So both of the Michelle's asked me about being on my show. Typically my hit rate for saying yes, is someone asking me to be on my show is extremely low. The only reason I said yes to them, or 80 % of the reason, was because I knew them personally. Like I had met both of them in person and obviously know Michelle Jackson very well. And because I was interested in the topics that they proposed. That was maybe the In terms of me saying yes to a pitch, I pretty much, I almost don't even read half of them. They're so irrelevant for my show and so wildly unspecific to what it is I want to focus on. ⁓ so almost a hundred percent of my episodes have been me reaching out and saying, Hey, I saw your story. I'd like to go deeper in an interview on my show. And even going into 2026 now, have some episodes that are going to be more ecosystem driven. So it's going to be multiple interviews that I'm weaving into a narrative about a town or a city, ⁓ or an area in North Carolina, ⁓ normal history. So it's going to be almost like. Matt Gilhooly (36:09) Good on you. Angela Hollowell (36:12) investigative journalism meets like creator interest. I don't know. But on North Carolina's business, like still on the premise of the show. So highly curated interviews, I would say on my end. Matt Gilhooly (36:17) Yeah, I love that. Yeah, for me, haven't sought out a guest since October of 22. So I probably get, I get all the ones you get. I get a lot of copy paste pitches which drive me bonkers and feel disrespectful because I am so close to my content and it feels so personal. Even if I'm holding, you know, someone else's story, it still feels very personal and curated. And so it still, it hurts a little when they're like, I love your show. This is how someone can teach your audience about dancing. And you're like, you don't love my show. You've never heard my show. so, but it seems to be the norm a lot of agencies that are pitching. But I do respond to every pitch that I get, even the terrible ones, because I think they should know. that it doesn't align. that I, you know, based on what they said, it doesn't fit the mold. And, and I found a lot of responses back saying, you know what, you're right. Thank you for pointing that out. And so I'm trying to create a kinder ecosystem in which, you know, people can understand what it's like on this side. Because so many like yourself, you said you don't read half of them, and you just trash them. So that's why they just keep doing it. They just like blanket. the world with their particular pitches. But fortunately, in between all of those, I get some really deep, important pitches from people that have listened to the show, or they know someone that was on the show. And they're just like in an email dumping something really personal and hard for them. I've had people on the show talk about stuff they've never shared with people other than like their spouse or their parents. And they won't now want to share it with the world and Who am I to say no to that? Right? Because that's a story that needs to be shared. But it's gotten me into a situation in which I'm fully booked with two recordings every single week through like early March. So that's just recordings. And if I just recorded an episode that's coming out in March, I really have like episodes to take me into probably the fall. Right? And so that sounds good on paper. It sounds good for me. It hurts. because I'm holding these important stories and there could be someone out there that needs to hear it. So there's a big responsibility that I feel in which people that listen to my show have seen multiple episodes come out for every week for months on end so that I can get these stories out there because that part is more important to me than being a podcaster that is always consistent with one a week or whatever that may be. And so it's like, it's great. because there are so many stories out there and everyone has a story. Not everyone's ready to tell their story and I've recorded a few of those and a few that have never seen the light of day because of that. But overall, I'm blessed that I don't have to go out and seek because it's a little hard. Like I can't just think like think celebrity, right? Like, I don't know if they've had a life shift moment that they're ready to talk about. So how do I pitch them? So it is good that I have these inbound things but it can get a little overwhelming because how do you say no to someone's personal story? Angela Hollowell (39:54) Yeah, I mean, again, as someone who doesn't really read a lot of pitches, they can show whatever they want. Most of them are just so irrelevant. And part of that is, I will say it's easy for me to weed out as well, because in the description of the show, I say that I only interviewed North Carolina entrepreneurs. And almost everybody that pitches me is not from North Carolina. So it's just like, are you in my inbox trying to pick me up on something about like Matt Gilhooly (40:01) Ha Right. Yeah. Right. Yeah, that's fair. Angela Hollowell (40:21) how to grow a print on demand. I don't care. My audience doesn't care. Please stop. Okay. Matt Gilhooly (40:28) Fair. Yeah, it's I think, you know, they're just doing their job too. And that's kind of why I feel the need to respond to let them know it just there's no connection to the show or you know, I wish them the best but it's worked out well actually, because sometimes they'll come back and say, ⁓ you know what, you're right. And I just thought of someone else because of what you said, as it relates to this. And here's how I think they really fit but this person didn't. And so I'm trying to find the time to do that, but I try to respond to nearly all of them that come through. It's wild and crazy. Angela Hollowell (41:04) This is something we talked about ⁓ in terms of being podcast, like from the perspective of a podcast guest, right? So there's an element of storytelling that we are being conduits for, right? By providing a platform and creating a safe space for people to tell certain stories. But there's also this element of like, Well, for people who want to be podcast guests, which includes ourselves, we've been guests on other shows. How do identify the parts of our story that would be relevant for a show for us? It probably feels innate, but for a lot of the people that are pitching us and giving us these cookie cutter, look at this PDF that we put together that we sent it 60 people who just so happen to be. you know, in this category on Spotify who have released an episode in the last 90 days, probably is my assumption of how they're filtering and finding my show. And, you know, ultimately, you know, it fills an eight for us to be like, okay, I see this show on. Writing and I'm a writer. Of course. I want to be on the show Let me tell them about my newsletter and I would love to come on and talk about my you know approach to writing a newsletter and approach to writing narrative film series and you know approach to writing anything That feels like a good fit right that feels innate that feels aligned with their show But we get so many people who just don't do that. And I think part of it is, you know lack of understanding of the filtering process that we have to go through and the attachment that we have to our audience as well. Like you said, like I care deeply about who I put in front of my audience. And even sometimes when I have someone like Michelle things who is a great person, honestly, she's super nice. But maybe it's on the shorter end of things and I kind of have to like really massage the episode to get it to a place where I feel comfortable. Even that to me feels like work and feels like care. it's I've only had aside from season one because audio is terrible. I think I've only had one other interview that I've said, hey, I can't air that's really hard for me to do. So yeah, I. Yeah. Matt Gilhooly (43:12) Yeah. Because you it feels like for me, it feels like I'm discounting their story. And it was a really hard decision. And I'm glad I made it and I would it didn't fit. It didn't feel right. We didn't get to a place that was like a life shift moment, we got to generalities. And that's an instance in which someone believes they're ready to tell their story. But then they're not when when you get into the nitty gritty. And that's okay to But I also have to be true to what I want to, you know, project out there and put out there in the world. But then you have the ones like I mentioned, I had a guest, I was going to just kind of go into that power of storytelling again, I had a guest that on to the show for the first time was sharing her infertility journey through, you know, trying to conceive and, and she had told, I mean, just her husband and her parents knew she hadn't told anyone because there's some kind of shame that people bring along with that that they shouldn't that the public kind of feels and so she felt really empowered after she told that and people reached out to her and said, I went through the same thing. I know exactly how you're feeling and all this stuff. And I'm saying this because there is such power in that. And because she told her story in that way, and we have that conversation, she went to her HR department. And she advocated that they include a stipend to people that are trying to start families, whether that's IVF, fertility treatments, or adoption. And so now everyone at her company has the opportunity to get this stipend to start their family in whatever way they need help doing so. And I think that's beautiful because sometimes we hold on to our stories because we think, well, no one cares, or I should be ashamed, or it's mine to deal with. I'm the only one that's gone through it, but saying it out loud can create such power in ourselves. And so I always encourage people to just share their story with whoever or write it or, you know, something, just get it out of your head because I think it can empower you because for me, all the things in my head are far scarier in my head than when I say them out loud or write them down. So I really just, I think I knew the power of storytelling before, like I understood it logically, like. there's a lot of power in that. But seeing it happen, it's pretty cool. You know, or when someone's like, I never really thought about that part of my life. In that way, you see like the light bulbs and the things now we've uncovered a layer for them that maybe is going to change how they see that particular moment. Maybe they thought it was bad. And now, some somehow they're like, ⁓ that makes sense now. Why I did that. So I think there's just we're lucky. We're lucky that we get to have conversations with people and that they are willing to go down roads that maybe they don't always share in other places. So I'm just so honored. Angela Hollowell (46:15) Really quick here, we've been going for 46 minutes and I just want to say thank you. Everybody's been like hanging out with us. Like so much fun and Frank is back at it with another question. What was the most difficult part of hosting of the hosting learning curve? For example, some hosts talk too fast, too slow. I think for me, because I started with and it's if it's okay if I answer this first, but I think for me, because I started with a video podcast. Matt Gilhooly (46:19) wow. Yeah. Frank's the best. Angela Hollowell (46:46) And still am gonna bring that back to For one, I was just showing up on camera and getting used to seeing myself on camera and getting used to being like perceived as like, people can see me and like watch me and see my mannerisms and let me not try to look too bored. Let me try to look engaged. Let me, you know, and when I get nervous, I talk fast. So I did have to go through that. And my mom. Matt Gilhooly (47:06) Too much work. Angela Hollowell (47:12) who was like my biggest advocate, she will text me. Like she watched, and that was like my biggest saving grace, I think when I first started my YouTube and podcast journey was that my mom would watch everything and she would text me feedback. She'd be like, the music is too loud on the edit. You're talking too fast. You need to slow down. That person has a voice like a freight train. Why did you get them on the show? Like just all these different things. No, ages ago when I first started. And I think, you know, like Matt Gilhooly (47:33) Was that my episode? Angela Hollowell (47:41) Having that was helpful because sometimes you know you're talking too fast, you know you're nervous, but then to hear it come across is like, also like, okay, I need to slow down, I need to take a breath, and I need to find my way as a host and how I show up on camera. And I think that has gotten so much better as the years have gone on, but it's through just a lot of practice of me just saying, yes, the camera's here, but like. even without the cameras. This is how people see me when I'm walking on the street and I never feel self-conscious about it then. Like, why should I feel self-conscious about it now? So having that talk with myself, having my little uniform that I wear, so like me and Matt are both wearing like our own merch, that makes me feel like, okay, I'm showing up for work today. I'm showing up for the camera today, like in a way that feels good and feels right to me. And then also, I think just through having Matt Gilhooly (48:13) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Angela Hollowell (48:34) the time where I'm setting up for a video podcast and having the time before we hit record on Riverside, if I'm hosting someone virtually, is having and using that space to like build rapport, like not thinking I need to immediately go into recording after I say hello. It's like, no, we can talk and I can ask them how they're doing. I can see if they need water. can, you know, see how they're feeling today, test the audio with them, kind of give them expectations for what they can expect during the interview and really just like help them feel at ease. And also, give myself time to work on my cadence, work on my pace, give them, yes, like that. And just really set the tone for how things are gonna go and really work on welcoming them into a space. And that's even something that I've taken into the newsletter. It's like, okay, what am I doing with my welcome message or welcome sequence? Am I making people feel welcomed into the newsletter community? Matt Gilhooly (49:09) and don't hit the table. like you just were. Angela Hollowell (49:34) Or am I just saying, hey, thanks for subscribing. Thank you. We bombarded with my inner like, you know, like that's also not welcoming. That also doesn't make people feel like they want to stay after, you know, one or two issues. creating that culture of like in space for like, this is what to expect. you're welcome here. This is a safe space. This is how this is going to go. If you mess up, that's fine. I can edit it out, you know, know, there's anything you feel uncomfortable with after you've thought about it after we record, just let me know, it's no problem. All those types of things I think are super important. Matt Gilhooly (50:05) Yeah. For me, though, a lot of it was I didn't know what I would sound like in these interviews or these conversations that I'm having. And having to edit myself gave me the ability to learn how to speak better and to avoid a lot of filler words and just give some space and slow down. I think that it's much easier to edit. And so I think the more you edit yourself, the more you realize, okay, I can avoid doing some of those things. I can take a breath there instead of kind of filling space within noise. I can make a mistake and then pause and then say it the correct way and also not sound like a robot, which I think is important. And Frank, that is a challenge. question, Frank just asked, don't let the guess blurt out the entire story all at once without taking a breath. How do you two do that? That is a challenge because I think when someone is nervous to share their very personal story, I find that they talk more without pausing. so the only thing I do now is if I can tell they're nervous when they come on, we have the rapport kind of building like you said, Angela, but I say, okay, I need you to pause every once in a while. because I would like to interject with stuff and sometimes I just have to interrupt. And I try to do that carefully and kindly and kind of re-navigate the direction that we're going because it's really easy for someone that hasn't told their story before to get caught in the weeds about things that are not making the story go on. So it's hard though because at the same time you're like, this is their story. don't want to assume that it should go in a different direction. that one's a hard one. And I just kind of play in the moment, I think for that. How about you? Angela Hollowell (52:09) I think, you know, as someone who preps a lot for interviews, I kind of always want people to feel like I'm setting them up for success. Like I don't want people to feel like I'm setting them up for a gotcha moment or I'm setting them up to be uncomfortable. And I think one thing that I've learned, because again, especially after the guests that I had to say like, I can't air this episode. learned that sometimes breaking up a story is really helpful. Um, one of the pieces of advice I got from someone as I was like prepping for a presentation was like 10 and two chunk and chew. Um, so like have kind of a maybe wide angle question that we start with, uh, where sometimes like, don't say, Oh, introduce yourself. I'll say, Hey, this is who this is. And I want to start with this part of your story. Right. Um, and allow them to kind of fill in the gaps for me. And then I'll say, I'll kind of follow their thread through that. So give them a big chunk and then let's let people chew on it. Well, why did that happen? Why did you decide to do this business? Why did you decide to move? Why did you decide to quit your job? When did you know this was the right time to go full on in your business? So give people kind of a good section of like, here's a bigger part of it. Let's break that down into smaller parts. Okay, here's another part. Let's break that down into smaller parts. Matt Gilhooly (53:26) Mm-hmm. Angela Hollowell (53:29) And for again, for that to feel as natural as possible to feel like I'm guiding them through the experience of sharing their story and guiding them through the things that they've accomplished. Right. Because I think for me, sometimes when I'm interviewing people, especially North Carolina entrepreneurs who, you know, are not ninth wonder, they're not people who have been interviewed a lot before. They probably have a hard time bragging on themselves. And I want people to brag on themselves. I don't want people to feel like I'm only here to get the nasty parts of business. I want to get the good parts. How do we create space for both, you know? Matt Gilhooly (53:59) But I also want the nasty part. it is a challenge. for me, sometimes it's like, Frank, sometimes they don't blurt any of the story out. Like they immediately jump to like, I'll ask them to paint the picture of their life leading up to the life shift moment. And they're like, one sentence and then and then this happened. And then you're like, ⁓ wow, you did not give me so then we have to like backtrack and kind of figure it out how how we can really showcase that before version. But I think for me, your show is more structured than mine. have like, I have three parts that I see my show in is the before, the moment and the after. And so I try to navigate that as best as I can. But sometimes it's like the befores itty bitty and the afters really long. And then sometimes the before is really long. And then we only have a little bit of time to dissect the after. But I don't fault myself for that. Because I think, in my opinion, if they feel comfortable, if they feel their story came out in the way that they wanted to, long as they didn't hit the bullet points that I hate when people try to come in with their bullet points. I feel like we did a good job and that was how the story was meant to be told that particular day. So there's a lot of freedom in that that I've given myself, which is weird for a very much perfectionist type of person. It's weird that I've let go of a lot of those things because of this show. So it's like changed me. in a way that is way more empathetic, way more forgiving of myself for a lot of things. it's just been, podcasting has been the best thing that I've ever done for me. And I mean, I'm glad that it resonates with other people, but it's the best thing that I've ever done for myself. Angela Hollowell (55:50) man. Are we getting sappy here? We have we're at 56. I just want to say thank you to Frank. Frank says the both of you are superb at what you do. I listen to celebrity interview shows for my work for the celebrity can't hold a candle to your skills. And I also want to say that's probably because they haven't hosted before. And that's fine. I want to believe that. Matt Gilhooly (55:53) Yeah. Angela Hollowell (56:16) because of all the money that goes into celebrity interview shows that they will get better over time. That would be great. Matt Gilhooly (56:21) I wish all that money came into our shows. That would be would be awesome. Yeah. No, I agree. And Frank is thank you for being so kind to the independent podcast. People that are part of all these shows, the hosts, the production teams, all the the networks that exist because, you know, just being seen by people is is really beautiful. And and you've done such a great job connecting people to like, I've met so many people through the, the podcasts that you review and it's just been thank you for what you do. I don't know what else to say besides thank you. It's, it's very meaningful. Angela Hollowell (57:05) Yeah, a lot of love going around. love it. Oh man, thank you both. I'll be writing an article about this hour. Thank you both for what you do. Oh man. Matt Gilhooly (57:12) I have a new artwork, Frank, so I'll send you the new artwork, because I like to change my artwork. I'm on version nine of my artwork. Angela Hollowell (57:20) okay. I haven't changed mine in forever. ⁓ Matt Gilhooly (57:24) But anyway, we don't want to keep everyone. understand that you dedicated your hour to us and we're just so grateful. We didn't know. I mean, we kind of knew what we were going to come in and talk about, but we didn't know how this was going to go. And I just, I love these questions and being able to talk about podcasting, you know, in this way and seeing how different we are in the way that we approach our podcasts. It's just fantastic. So thank you guys. Did I end it too soon? Angela Hollowell (57:50) Thank you. ⁓ No, I think it's fine. I think it's fine. Thank you. Matt Gilhooly (57:55) Happy holidays to everyone and Merry Christmas and all the things that we celebrate. hope you get some time with your family and enjoy that. We'll still be podcasting over here, so make sure you're following us. Angela Hollowell (58:09) I'll see you guys. Matt Gilhooly (58:10) Alright guys, have a great one. Take care.