When Motherhood Looks Different: Jennifer Celeste Briggs on Autism, Guilt, and Grace

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Jenny always knew she wanted to become a mom. But when her daughter was born with special needs, everything that she imagined about parenthood started to unravel. In this conversation, she shares the moment she stopped trying to fix what wasn't broken and how giving herself permission to just love changed everything. Those bricks fell away because I think I was suddenly given permission to just really love her and delight in Sarah exactly as she was. And I was given concrete...

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and strategies and a plan  for here's how you work with her. Here's how you notice when she's available and here's when she's not available to connect. Here's how to try teaching her language. This is what not to do. Here's how to set up a focus room if you want a dedicated playroom. Here's how to find volunteers and train them. Go forth  and love your child.  I'm Maciel Hoolie and this is The Life Shift.

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candid conversations about the pivotal moments that have changed lives forever.

01:12
Hello, my friends. Welcome to LifeShift podcast. am here with Jenny. Hello, Jenny. Hello. Thanks for having me. Well, thank you for wanting to be a part of the LifeShift podcast. It's been this journey that I never really knew  that I needed  and come to find out I think from what I've heard from listeners,  it's a show that I think  others need as well, because human stories have so much power. I think sometimes we are in moments, whether they're

01:42
positive or maybe negative, we feel like we might be the only one  going through it or we feel like, you know, how do I navigate this?  Am I the only person that's ever experienced this? Maybe logically we know we're not,  but sometimes it feels like that. And so I found that just by sharing these stories, there's so much that we have in common as humans, like the emotion part and like how we deal with things, even if our experiences are so wildly different. So.

02:11
Thank you for just wanting to come on this journey and share your story in the life shift way. Yeah, absolutely. I feel exactly the same way.  And  I have found because I tend to be very open about sharing my feelings and experiences.  And then I get feedback from other people who maybe don't share it as much saying, oh,  that was so helpful. I could really relate to that. Yeah, no, that has been such a blessing. And I didn't really learn that in my own personal journey until maybe

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in my  30s,  so maybe like for the past 15 years or so, where I've been more vocal about things that  maybe growing up I was conditioned that we weren't supposed to talk about, like  boys were only supposed to feel these certain ways, so we couldn't,  you know, I couldn't show a vulnerable side or I couldn't show any kind of quote unquote weakness, which in my mind as a kid  equated to crying or being sad, right?  And now that I have

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I hear from people that are like, can't tell other people this,  but  when you said X, Y, and Z about this particular thing you're dealing with right now,  it really hit me in the, you know, like it hit me in the right place. And that's why we do it, right? That's why we share our stories. Selfishly, it probably helps us a little bit too by telling the story, right? Yeah. Well,  and  I've been sharing in a blog format for years.

03:36
And when I share about problems, then I get answers from people that I wouldn't expect to have the answer. And yet they actually do have the answer that I needed. Yeah. And you weren't seeking the answer, probably. You're just like sharing your story and they're like, hey, this is what happened to me. Yeah. And just venting about, here is the mystery I'm running up against right now. I don't know how to solve it. And then ideas come in. The more we share, I feel like the more we will learn about ourselves, about each other, and how to navigate this world. Because at the end of the day, we're all trying

04:06
do the same thing, right? Enjoy as much of the time that we have here with the people around us. So kudos to you for being so open. I think it's so needed in this world. So before we get into your story, maybe you can tell us in 2025, how does Jenny identify in this world? Like, who is Jenny? It's a big question. is, especially because I feel like I'm in the sort of quintessential midlife.

04:35
shift of who am I, what do I want to do? I actually retired from my massage therapy career of 24 years a year ago, and about half a year ago I stopped teaching.  And so now  I am definitely still a mom, and I take care of stuff around the house,  and I'm enjoying having a lot of time to read.  I am

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maybe trying to write another book, but that's really hard. And so if I get 10 minutes in a day, that's like, oh, wow, that is really to be celebrated.  And then a lot of the time I  am wondering, where did this day go?  If I don't have an official job, how did I still get through an entire day and not have time to sit and read? Like, what just happened here?  But somehow there are still a lot of things, and a lot of things with kids, you know, taking them to various.

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various  classes or just wanting to spend time with them. think here's where I am too, is that  I have an 18 year old and a 14 year old and I am suddenly like, oh my gosh, they are not going to be living at home forever.  Oh my gosh.  And  I just want to follow them around instead of being like, oh, can I get some time to myself? It's like, no, no, no. I want to hang out with these individuals.

05:56
That's a win right there that you want to spend time with an 18-year-old and a 14-year-old. I think there's a lot of parents that are like, get out of my face right now. Well, and  I should  put a little asterisk. The 18-year-old is the one who has special needs. And so she is,  in some ways, very much an 18-year-old, and in other ways, I think,  not. And so  we're not looking at her imminently leaving home, as you might with  a neurotypical 18-year-old. I mean, even still, though, teenagers.

06:25
or teenagers, right? I think there's a lot to be said there. So maybe you can kind of paint the picture of your life leading up to this life shift moment and you can go back however far back you think you might need to kind of show who Jenny was before the life shift that we're going to talk about today. I understand that we have many of them, but the one that we're centering today's conversation around. Yeah. Well, I think the most important thing from my very early years is that as soon as I

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realized that I could grow up and be a mom. That is what I wanted to do. And certainly there were things  later that I thought, oh, I want to be a teacher or  I can't remember any other ideas of what I thought I wanted to do.  The vision of myself as a teacher in the way I thought is not how it turned out to be. My dad taught third grade. I thought I'll grow up and teach elementary school. And then  later I thought, oh, I'll be an English lit teacher.  None of that happened. And yet

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I actually did become a teacher for massage and the Alexander technique and then for my daughter. But I knew probably from like age five on, maybe even younger, I want to be a mom.  And that stayed constant. And I also had the privilege, the luck, the blessing of growing up  with two parents who really understood emotion and the importance of  letting kids and adults have their feelings.

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listening to me cry or rant and rave and they were able to do it without sort of taking it personally and getting hurt, but to really give me the space to move through my emotional junk and then I could be sparkling on the other side and do whatever it was that they needed me to do. Like my, I think both of them together might've listened to me for a couple hours over my fear of getting a splinter taken out of my foot.  And I don't know any other parents who would be so patient.

08:20
But I think that that really set the stage for how I wanted to parent.  And when I met my husband  in probably the first date or something, maybe a little farther in, I was like,  OK, here's what you have to know. Sometimes  I have big emotions and I just need to cry and I don't want you to fix it and I don't want suggestions. I just need you to listen to me. And he understood that and he got it. And  honestly, sometimes he's better at remembering that with our kids.

08:47
than I am because I'm reaching my own limit. And then he's here listening to all of us have our feelings and somehow he's staying calm. Yeah, no, I think that's so  beautiful that you have that experience. I don't often talk to people that had maybe this  emotionally idyllic  experience as kids, right? Like I feel like for myself, it  was not that way. Maybe it could have been, but we weren't like an open.

09:15
family in that way. I don't think people really share their emotions, so I made a lot of assumptions. So my mom died when I was eight and my parents were divorced. And so when I moved in with my dad full time, there wasn't this open space where I could be sad, I don't think. The door wasn't open for me in that way, so I assumed  nobody wants to see that.

09:40
I need to be perfect. I need to perform that everything is okay, which then becomes this snowball in like a negative way growing up, right? That perfectionist trait, the people pleasing, all the things kind of just get  bigger and worse. Whereas I look at you and I'm like, wow, if you had that, maybe the snowball gets bigger in a beautiful way. It allows you  to share your story open. You were like, I share, I'm very open and all that stuff. And maybe that because you were

10:08
conditioning, almost like working that muscle out, it becomes even more beautiful, like this big snowball. Do you see that as as true or am I like way off in this dreamland? Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense.  I will also say I also aspire to perfection and  like especially in school and wanting to be a good daughter.  I don't think any of that pressure was coming from my parents, except  maybe in that that was like the  I don't know, in our DNA.

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the heritage that we were breathing of just like, well, we do well in this family, but they never  were putting the pressure on me.  I was the one being like, I have to stay up to do this homework assignment.  And my parents are divorced, but they handled it in such a beautiful way  because they wanted to support me. So they told me together, they listened to me cry,  and then they split my time  equally. And then  once I was old enough to be saying, okay, here's where I'm going on.

11:06
this vacation or how am I splitting Christmas?  They were the ones to assure me that it was OK if I didn't split it right down the middle. They wanted me to just not be stressed about it. I was still stressing because I'm very good about being stressed and worried.  your profession,  the didn't come from them. Did your parents  have families like that? I don't want to go back into your entire lineage, but did like your parents come from families that also were fairly open and understanding?

11:33
Or is this like they were breaking the mold? I think they were breaking the mold. Yeah. So sometimes we become our parents and sometimes we become different people because of what we experienced from our parents. Right. Yeah. And so it sounds like they broke that. And then you were like, no, let me continue that. Yeah. Well, that's good. At least you didn't go against the grain. Yeah. So you met your husband. He's like, yep, I will listen to you, which is so important, the power of story and just being heard. I don't know, validate is the right word, but like

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validated in the sense that what you feel matters and it's correct for you. Yeah. So you met  a good person for what you needed at the time. Yes.  And I think also that he just does have a more even keel through life. Like if he loses his temper, I know things are like serious, you know,  and he most often will just get frustrated if technology doesn't work the way it's supposed to.  But

12:28
He is the one to solve all technology problems for the family. He is the one to not get anxious about, I don't know, so many different things. And I think the rest of us keep it interesting for him because  we are  much more all over the place with our emotions. At least you have them. I think that's important. Yeah. So keep taking us down this journey to your life shift. My husband and I, after college, we moved to Pittsburgh  and  he got a PhD and I was

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as he was finishing up his dissertation and I had my massage practice, I'm thinking, okay, let's have a family. He was like,  let's wait till I'm done. I was like, no,  I want to start now.  And then later I could think, oh,  thank goodness  he wanted to wait because parenting is  really a big thing.  And of course I had no way of knowing that  Sarah, our first born,

13:22
would have special needs, but she did. And we didn't know right away.  She was full term  and she was tiny,  but we went home normally. And then she was having a little trouble  with nursing, but that again, common.  I needed la leche people to come  help me. And  the doctors were a little worried that she wasn't gaining weight enough before my milk came in. So we were supplementing that. Then everything started. It seemed like it was going okay.  But as the weeks passed,

13:51
then we were noticing in comparison to other kids, because I was in  little mom groups, that these other kids were starting to do things and she was not.  And she had  a few seizures when she was six through eight weeks old. And that also was like, what is happening? So we went to the hospital and got her tested and they were like, oh, they're benign.  And,  but still that was probably when my  antenna first started waving around of like, is something

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different. And then by the time she was six months old, it was really clear that something was different and she wasn't reaching for toys. She wasn't sitting up. She wasn't rolling over. We started getting early intervention coming to the house. So she was getting physical therapy, occupational therapy. I've seen lots of doctors because nobody knew what what's going on here. so what time period was this? She was born in 2007. So how are you feeling during that too? Like what were you?

14:50
Because you wanted to be a mom your whole life. And so this was your experience. And  I'm sure the picture that you had painted for so long was a little different.  Maybe not wildly different, but maybe a little bit different. How are you feeling during this? I think I probably was all over the map of sometimes I could take her for a walk and be lost in how she was the cutest baby ever, which I know all parents have the cutest baby ever. But she really was the cutest baby ever until her sister was born, who was also the cutest baby ever.

15:21
But there were those cozy moments where she's nursing and we're snuggly and like everything's great. And then I think it was more when I was seeing the comparison of how she was not doing things that then it was like, oh, this is uncomfortable. I feel maybe a little lonely with this or trying to hide it. And then with the testing,  that was,  it was like equal parts scary, but also we wanted the information.

15:47
And it was a lot of time of taking her places  and  they wanted an MRI and  they wanted to sedate her and they did. And then when she came out of it, she was  upset and  not settling as quickly as they wanted. So they wanted to give her drugs.  luckily I knew a music therapist on staff and I asked for her to come and that helped. That's all the problem actually. She just was more  soothed and sort of like woke up fine.  But it took until she was a year.

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to get a diagnosis, which that actually,  even though I've written a book and I'm very open about everything, that is the one piece of information I don't share,  mainly because I want her to be able to come to that decision.  And I don't want anyone who's inspired by my story to  think that they need to have the exact same diagnosis for their kid. It was hard, maybe hard and a relief to get the answer and to say, oh,  we're not making this up.

16:44
It's not something that I have done wrong, because boy, did I think it was something, did I eat the wrong thing when I was pregnant?  Did I think the wrong thing?  You took on  something.  I definitely felt so much responsibility  as if it was my fault, as if I needed to fix it. We needed to get all the therapy and fix it  yesterday.  When it's not something to fix. It's not something, exactly. I think as Americans, at least, we're kind of, we have grown up that

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that if there's a quote unquote different type of thing that could be seen as a problem, we must fix it when a lot of the things don't need to be fixed or yes,  we can we can navigate differently, but it's not a fix. Right.  So and I think  because her diagnosis was genetic, that was information to help me say, OK,  this was not something that I  did.

17:41
Aside from if I was really going sort of meta level of like, I thought the wrong thoughts.  If only I had,  I don't know. You would never get the answers to that though. But I what's important about saying that out loud is because you're not the only woman or parent that has ever felt that way. I mean, I think that those things are often,  we just keep them to ourselves. That's right. You and you wrote a book and you shared, I'm sure some of that, but yeah, it's.

18:09
Especially for women and new mothers, I think  you all take on so much and share not as much that you're taking on, right? And  so many of these things and feelings  are so valid and important.  And even the ones that we think, oh, God, if someone knew I was feeling this way right now,  they would judge me  as a bad person, as a bad mother, as a bad  whatever. I'm sure. Did you have those feelings of like, I can never tell anyone that I feel this way right now?

18:39
I actually did, and yet I also wrote about it in my book. There was a moment  after Sarah was born, I was, you know, I'm still recovering, so sore,  so tired, more tired than I can ever remember being in my entire life. And I was holding her and she was crying.  And I saw the corner of a dresser and I was like, if I just whap her head on this, this will end and I can go back to sleep. And of course, that's horrifying,  absolutely horrifying. And I didn't do it.

19:09
But I think for me, that really highlighted how exhausted I was. I was just, had nothing left to give. And I think for her early years, a lot of the time I was tired, not in that same physical tired, but I was very emotionally tired because I was always thinking, if I just do  XYZ more,  then  somehow  she will get to where she needs to be, even though we just had

19:35
almost more questions than answers as each day went by of like, will she learn to roll over? Will she learn to lift her head? Because she did not respond to tummy time the way babies are supposed to. Even if they're upset, they're supposed to lift their head to strengthen their neck. She would press her head into the rug. And then she didn't  like to eat  very much. And so  when it was time to switch her to solid foods  and my milk supply  did a little hiccup just

20:04
to make things more fun.  Then she was diagnosed as failure to thrive, which means your child is not gaining weight  as quickly as the medical community wants them to gain weight.  I didn't want a feeding tube. I thought that would somehow highlight more that she had special needs. I was still in denial. I somehow thought we could do enough  that she would pass as not having special needs. And so I just worked my butt off. I would go to the grocery store and pick up everything looking for what is the highest calorie thing.

20:34
I added oil or powdered oil. You can get powdered oil to add to her food. We got super fortified drinks, kind of like PediaShore, but a different brand.  I would give her ice cream,  butter pats, straight,  anything she would eat all the time. And only if she got enough calories in a day would I think, oh, I could offer her a fruit or vegetable now, because those are so low calorie. And this is even in the pureed.

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before she started chewing.  then I would track all the calories. So yeah, that was really hard  and going to...  Well, actually she had PT and OT coming to the house, but then we started going to see a nutritionist. Before she turned three, the nutritionist also came to the house. And then when she turned three,  she had to go to preschool run by the public school to continue getting early intervention. That's how it works.  Somehow  she did  learn these skills. She did learn to roll over.  She did learn to sit up.

21:27
She did learn to walk. It was just later.  But each thing felt like a miracle, like when she took a tiny step or scooched forward a little for crawling. It was so huge. I guess it was when she was four, she still wasn't talking.  But she was walking.  The eating had gotten better. People were starting at school or at home to feel like  maybe her eye contact was starting to go away from us. Like she was maybe withdrawing from us a little bit.

21:55
And in college, I had read a book called Sunrise by Barry Neal Kaufman about bears and Samaria Kaufman. Samaria wrote the forward to my book.  And they had a severely autistic son named Ron in the  70s.  And they were told to put him in an institution.  And  they didn't want to do that. And so they developed the Sunrise program where working with him, son spelled S-O-N for the first son.

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Working with him one-on-one,  instead of stopping his repetitive behaviors, they would join them, do the same thing. Not from a copying perspective, but like, how can I really see what's interesting about spinning a plate? Let me show you that I love you through being with you and giving you this time and attention, and I'm not going to force anything, but I'll celebrate if you look at me for a nanosecond. And after three years of working with him intensively, he completely transformed.

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And so that's why Bears, Barry Neal Kaufman is known affectionately as Bears. And he wrote the book. And I read it in college and thought, wow, that's amazing. And I did a program at the Option Institute, which is run by the same people that started the Autism Treatment Center of America, where they teach Sunrise. And at the Option Institute, they're helping grownups look at their own beliefs for what is maybe holding them back from being happy and enjoying their life. Like, are you walking around feeling like you're a tailbone?

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person, but you're not a bad person. You just somehow internalize that and  you're blaming everything around you, but actually it's your own hidden belief.  So I did an eight week program there. I knew bears in Samaria. I loved them. I never thought in a million years that I would actually have a kid and run a sunrise program, even though I thought that was so cool and amazing. And then when Sarah was in those early years, I was in survival mode. So

23:44
Even though I knew about it and knew it had even been used to help kids with eating issues, just, I just couldn't. But then when she was four and it's like, okay, things are, things are coming along a little bit better. And we actually had another baby who was born in March of that year. So they're like three months off from each other or two and a half and four years different. But so, but, and it's important, it's important to, to mention that Amy came into the picture because, because that changed.

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how much help I needed. So when I decided finally things are a little bit better with Sarah, but also she's still not talking, what more can we do? Let me do, I need like some big thing. Let me go to the Autism Treatment Center of America and get trained to run a sunrise program.  Oh, well, I'm gonna need help. Someone's gonna have to come be with Sarah because my husband Carl is still working a full-time job. So his sister flew across the country to help for the week that I was gone.

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And Amy was still breastfeeding, so my mom drove up with me,  even though she lives in a different city,  she came with me for the training to take care of Amy and I would run in on my breaks to nurse her.  And she came up two more times because there were three training sessions that I did. But the first one,  that was, I would say that was the life shift of

25:04
all those bricks of guilt that I was carrying, a feeling like this is my fault and my responsibility and I need to work harder, harder, harder. But actually the guilt and the fear around it was stopping me from working more effectively. And I didn't even see it  because I was so weighed down. And those bricks fell away because I think I was suddenly given permission to just really love her and delight in Sarah exactly as she was.

25:33
And I was given concrete tools and strategies and a plan  for here's how you work with her. Here's how you notice when she's available and here's when she's not available to connect. Here's how to try teaching her language. This is what not to do. Here's how to set up a focus room if you want a dedicated playroom. Here's how to find volunteers and train them. Go forth  and love your child. And  I just, felt so  light  after that and like,

26:02
A little overwhelmed. Yeah, hope, so much hope. A little overwhelmed by, this is a big undertaking. This is going to be a really big deal. I remember being surprised when they were saying  that I would need to designate a team leader for this program that we were going to do and realizing that that was going to be me and being like, wait, is there somebody else? What?  But of course it needed to be me because I was the one spending most of the time with Sarah and who had the time to  spend with her.

26:31
You know, I think it's so important about your story. The one word that stuck out to me was permission. And permission,  I think you got permission from yourself, from the way that you tell your story. I'm sure, like, seeing all the other things, but it was, finally a moment where you were like, OK, this, you know, you, you can let go of some of that.  You can honor the fact that you had it, that you held on to the guilt that you.

26:58
took on quote unquote blame for something that wasn't yours to hold.  And that can exist. But we give ourselves permission that, okay, it existed. Now we can move forward with something. You're taking action. And it's really interesting how we can hold onto something. And then when we see the spark of light, or like just the little glimmer of hope, everything can shift like on a dime. And you're like, I don't know if you do this.

27:27
But I did this when I first got therapy like 20 years after my mom died, maybe more. And I was like, man, what if I had done this like 10 years ago? Did you have any of those feelings of like, I waited too long or I should have done this sooner? Or was it like all at the right timing for you? Well, that's something I think about a lot because I always think, oh, if I could go back in time, what would I change? Would I change, Sarah?  I used to think maybe. Now I think absolutely not. She has been...

27:57
such a gift to me and to so many other people, I would not change her at all. Maybe it would have been helpful if I started the Sunrise program earlier, but maybe not because... You wouldn't have been ready for it. I might not have been. I mean, maybe it would have made the eating better. I don't know, but I feel like where I really excelled was helping her with language. And that was where we sort of entered.

28:22
And as soon as I got home from my week of training, then I asked her for language in a different way than I ever had. And she gave me more language than she ever had. And I think you were talking about the things turning on a dime. Like already things had shifted in me internally, which probably paved the way. But that was the moment where it was like,  oh, this is going to work. This is really going to work for us and change things for her life and ours.

28:47
I think sometimes when we identify something that works, like a little inkling that works, do you allow yourself to fully believe? Do you end up with false hope? Like, what does that look like? Because I think I could go down any of those roads myself where I'd be like, this one tiny thing worked, so everything's going to be perfect. And life is going to be totally different in this beautiful picture that I painted since I was five years old kind of moment. What did it look like for you when that first piece hit?

29:17
And it worked. I think there was still a part of me that was hoping,  oh, she will transform  the way that Ron transformed and be able to go to school without help. And no one will know that we had these early struggles. So you were still holding that. I was still holding that with some part of me. But another part of me  fully accepted,  we're going to do this program because we want Sarah to feel loved  and we want to appreciate her and help her thrive to the best of her ability. And we don't.

29:47
need her to change at  all. Where before I think I needed her to change for me to feel okay as a parent and to be happy and enjoy my time with her. And the training really helped me see that I could want the world for her. I could want her to learn to speak, but I could let go of needing her to speak. There is a difference there. Yeah.  Were you before this program, were you isolating at all? Like were you or were you spending a lot of time

30:16
showing Sarah the world and the people around and people Sarah? We would go out  to therapy appointments and we would go out for walks a lot because she liked to go out for walks in the stroller,  which is interesting now because she loves watching traffic. And I wonder was that like in her even  when she was younger and we'd go to the library, library, labs, and we had  play dates with her peers. So, yeah, we were actually out a lot, but I think I felt still quite lonely. I didn't

30:45
have other parents whose kids had challenges.  And  maybe that was another difference with the training at the Autism Treatment Center of America to suddenly show up and be in a room full of parents who really were going through the same kind of challenge, even if it presented slightly differently. But they understood how you felt.  Exactly. All our kids had some repetitive behaviors, maybe weren't connecting to us the way we wanted, maybe.

31:13
were late hitting their milestones and these parents were probably also feeling guilty. Yeah, and shame. I there's so much value in finding the community of people that understand that have like empathy for you. Maybe they didn't go through the same exact experience, but they know how you feel. And you can finally let down your guard a little bit of like. I am a perfect mom in in my way, I am not the epitome of what we've

31:42
defined in a book when we were kids of what a perfect mom looks like, because that's not a thing. Like, it's not a fairy tale.  None of us get to live that. But you were a perfect mom in your world, but you could let down the guards in that space, which I think is probably why you found the permission and you found the hope, because you were around people that, like, got you. Yeah. And I think I also felt like I understood Sarah more  and how to support her and connect to her and...

32:11
and show her that I loved her, which of course I desperately did, but it's different when  you maybe don't know how to convey that or you don't know if your kid is getting it and to learn, oh, I can show her I love her by sitting with her and if she's opening and closing a lid on a Play-Doh container and I sit near her and open and close a lid on my Play-Doh container, that is saying I love you.  That's important. I think that's not something we're taught.

32:39
unless you go to a special program like this. And I I asked you the time period earlier because I'm wondering if people were as vocal back then as maybe they are now  about individuals and children with special needs and different ways to do it. It sounds like you found that book that was written a long time ago, but did you find that the community was much different? Like in general, like were people talking about it and you were finding resources that were helpful to you? Or was that like the one and only resource that kind of you came back to?

33:09
Well,  maybe it's because it's the one I knew about or also she didn't actually get an autism diagnosis till actually till after I got home from the training. And then I was like, great, I'm doing the thing I know best  where I know a lot of  what's out there that's supported by insurance or schools is the applied behavior analysis  and or it's called ABA therapy.  That is not something that appealed to me.  And I knew a lot of Sunrise families that had tried that and felt like it didn't fit for them.

33:38
I also have heard of many families where it was the right fit and it did help. So I think it really depends on the family and who the practitioner is.  But anything that we ever did that was remotely like that, like trying to offer a reward for Sarah to do something,  like that's how we  first attempted potty training.  No  way, no how it actually set us backwards. Like that was just not the way to work with her.

34:08
it have worked for me, right? And so that's what we assume, right? Like if it worked for me, then I move through. And I guess the question comes from, I think now in 2025,  if a parent  gets a diagnosis of their child, there's like forums, there's groups they can find, there's social media. And so I'm thinking this time period,  were there those things? Were you able to like...

34:32
your own research? Were you afraid to do your own research because you didn't know what you were going to find? I feel like  that's a big question of mine because I think now everything's at our fingertips. So we could find anything in a second and have an idea. But I don't know about then.  Yeah, I think it was less so  then than it is now.  I'm part of a Facebook group that's all for parents of kids who have the same diagnosis as Sarah, and  that did not exist  at first.  And I did research that.

35:02
and that was depressing, but also it's such a spectrum just like autism is, of like, you can get scared about a prognosis, but I don't know that it actually gives you any information about your kid. Yeah, it can bring you down a different road that you didn't need to go down. So you came home, you started some of this practice, things were starting to work. Do things like start to immediately feel like you're getting to  a comfortable growth?

35:31
in your own  relationship and how Sarah's developing?  Or is it still kind of a tricky, tricky battle for you? I think it was  maybe just a continual ramp up of being excited.  And it was also a little chaotic at first because we were moving to a new house. So I wasn't actually ready to start a program. I wasn't ready to set up a room.  My sister-in-law helped with the move and  and helped with the kids. And so

36:02
Once we moved, I mean, maybe that took a couple of months to get settled.  Then my sister-in-law would hang out with Amy. I would go in to the Sarah Rise room, because we called our program Sarah Rise.  I would just start with half an hour a day.  And that felt a little magical in there, I think, because  the room made it easier to be completely focused and not distracted for either of us. So I had been implementing things.

36:26
earlier before we had the room and trying just the way I related to her, asked for language or celebrated when she did  look at me or had some language. But having the room meant like, oh, we can really kind of settle into being together. And I'm not going to be worrying about taking care of Amy, not going to be answering the phone or looking at mail or dishes or what am I cooking for dinner? Like none of that. And I started ramping up to  get to do two hour chunks at a time. That's the ideal.

36:55
But I also knew that Sonia was going to be moving  back  across the country. Like she had her own life going on.  That's my sister-in-law. She had come to help with the move, but like she was going back.  And so then it was like, oh, okay, I'm going to need something. So I got out my binder  from my training notes. I was like, okay,  how do I get volunteers?  And I read through the suggestions and I thought, okay, let me start with just writing an email to...

37:23
my friends and connections in Pittsburgh. And maybe I'll  also send it to people who live somewhere else so they know what we're doing. And maybe they know someone just saying, hey,  here's what we're going to do. Here's what this program has done for some other people. We don't know how it'll change Sarah, but we want to give it a try. And we're very excited. And if you would like to help, I'll train you to work with Sarah, where you can be with Amy and I can be with Sarah.  Or if you want to come bring me a dinner, that's awesome too.

37:51
And I had so many responses from that. Like right away I was able to start, I had help to be with Amy. I had people wanting to be trained with Sarah. And then over the years that just kept growing.  there's a whole website called ASD Climber, which is to pair people who are running sunrise programs with people that want to volunteer. So I found some people that way. I asked  one of my friends who  taught at a college to send

38:19
my email to her drama students. Because I was like, I want people who are comfortable being silly.  the whole thing, mean, Sarah loves it when people are big and silly.  And the whole idea was to play. So I wanted people comfortable with that.  And I actually asked two different people who taught at two different colleges. maybe, I don't know, that was 10, 20 emails maybe went out. I have no idea. I got one answer. But that one  person was

38:47
available for the summer. So he actually spent time with Sarah and Amy and became a paid volunteer because he was coming three times a week  and spending four hours or more  in the house. And then he was so excited about it. He really loved it.  He told his friends about what he was doing. And so then his friends started reaching out to me. And then when he moved away, one of his friends stepped in to basically do as many hours as she could. And  it just was the most amazing, loving community that came together. And these people with

39:17
creativity  and  presence and thoughtfulness, and none of these were specialists. Many of them hadn't had any experience with someone with autism before. Some of them had a little, but some of that was ABA and they were excited about the different approach. And then we did have Sarah's speech therapist who we'd been paying to come to the house. Just we really liked  how he worked with her  and  his approach seemed kind of in line with the sunrise.

39:46
anyway, and then he was open to my training and feedback, which I can imagine not all specialists would want a parent observing them and being like,  OK, so in this moment, what if?  But he was open to that and was part of the team. And we would do team meetings  once every month or two. And  I would get a different sitter to be with the kids. And then all of us who worked with Sarah would be up in the Sarah Rise room  sitting on the floor saying,  like,

40:13
how our sessions had gone, maybe if we had questions, what did we want to work towards? We would always have three main goals that we were working towards. And those would kind of  help give new energy and focus going forward and keep things from getting stale. The first question that comes to mind is before you sent out this email, were you someone that asked for help from people?  Not in this way. And I'm still,  I think it's interesting. was, it was totally easy to ask for help in this way.

40:43
OK, because I think it was for Sarah. OK. Now,  if the house is a mess,  I will  sometimes clean it  grumpily rather than asking  my family to help, because I'll think it's easier if I just do it myself. But I think when it comes to doing things to help Sarah, I have been all on board like takes a village kind of thing mentality.  Oh, yes.  And  and that I didn't.

41:11
question it. I was like, well, this is going to be an awesome experience. Yeah. And turns out it was.  Yes.  And for all of the volunteers, it really meant a lot to them. So the end of my book is  the volunteers writing about what it meant to them in their life. No, I think it's such a beautiful story of how as a mother,  you're helping your daughter. But by helping your daughter,  she's helping  all of these people.

41:41
which then becomes this crazy ripple effect of how they're helping the people around them. And maybe they're implementing things that they've done with Sarah in their life with neurotypical people, right? Because maybe that is changing their relationships with other people. The effects of it is just so beautiful coming from this moment of this spark of hope and then realizing I can't do it all alone.

42:11
I mean, I you had your family around you, but like, can't do it with just these people around me. I need more help.  And then people like offering their time, whether they get paid a little or nothing,  most of them, they're getting from it. mean, they're getting this beautiful experience. And hopefully, I mean, like I can't imagine how Sarah's  life has expanded from this experience as well. Like, can you share a little bit about that? Whatever you can share of like how how this has changed her?

42:41
Yeah, well, I mean, I think the biggest way it changed her was that she now can communicate verbally.  But we also taught her to read through  a different program, but kind of implementing it within that. But I think it's that  she has so many people that she loves and she knows that they love her. She doesn't have a lot of  peer friends in the way that like her sister does. She does have some school friends and they like go to dances together,  but it's not that they're going to hang out.

43:11
talking together. And her talking, while she talks a blue streak, a lot of the time she wants to keep it to certain subjects that she loves a lot. And so her repetitive behavior now is really verbal. But these people, the volunteers, it's like they became her best friends, her best buds.  I mean, they were coming to do whatever she wanted to do in the room and coming up with fun games based on her interests.  I don't know that she was aware of that. She was just aware, like, these are great people. And we're having

43:40
a great time and yeah, one person leaves and then another one comes and this is the best ever. But that's humanity right there. I mean, you're seeing the epitome of humanity and the goodness that we can bring to the world as humans, even if it's just for a couple hours a day where we put ourselves aside and we help others that might need the help. How did this,  watching this unfold, being a big part of it, but watching it unfold, how did it change you?

44:09
Like, what did it do to you? It was  almost hard to accept sometimes how  much amazingness was coming in. Like, wait, you people really want to come and spend your time doing this?  Did you feel deserving of it? Hmm, probably not me.  I could think of it for Sarah. I think that that's still my journey now. But I think it probably softened my  heart. Like, as you were saying about the good of humanity, it's like, oh, this there's just so much goodness here, so much love.

44:39
And I think  the whole thing with coming to  see the,  well, it's weird to say, see the value of Sarah, but  to really let go of needing her to be different and to see how much she impacted other people and how much joy she brings to people  now. And she's so sparkly. mean, she can have a temper too and get upset, but as can I. But when she's sparkly, she's like the most sparkly, fun, hilarious person.

45:09
And when I was younger,  and probably still now, I wanted to get the good grades. I wanted to be perfect.  I needed to be perfect. And that was how I knew I was an OK person. And so now,  to have Sarah be someone who's not going to get the good grades, but I can see so clearly that she is improving the world just by being in it,  it  makes me pause and look at myself and say, can I?

45:40
love myself and accept myself the way I look at her and say, oh, it's okay if she got upset there. I still love her because I tend to be embarrassed when I get very upset or wish that I was different.  So I think that's my frontier now is to keep learning from how I can  love and accept Sarah and see how much she contributes to the world. And can I turn that around and see that I am contributing to the world?

46:09
Yeah. But I mean, I think that's important. I think there's so much  there's so much that you should be giving flowers to yourself for all the things that you've done. Right. And and how you've changed because of the things that you've done and because of how you've seen Sarah grow.  I'm curious how how it affects you having Sarah and all these special things for Sarah. How does it affect you as a mother to to your

46:38
your other daughter. Is that a different experience now that you have  both of them? Do you feel different in different ways? I definitely noticed that I it's almost like a physical energy change sometimes  one to the other and especially in their earlier years when Sarah and I would maybe clash more often if you know it might have been time for her to be in bed and she was wanting to get out and if we were tell her to go back to bed she might yell and scream so I would kind of steal myself.

47:06
if I heard footsteps.  And then I remember one night where I really thought it was Sarah and I was getting ready to sort of fight it. And then it was Amy and I was suddenly all like soft and gooey and it was like, well, that's humbling.  But I think...

47:24
Maybe it's actually  when I lose my temper still with Sarah sometimes that I  can think that I'm embarrassed about that because Amy's witnessing it. But I also know that being an imperfect parent and letting Amy see that and an imperfect human,  I value that. And I think that's important because if she becomes a parent, I want her to know that she doesn't have to be perfect.  And I want her to have space for her feelings too.  I think.

47:53
Doing the Sarah Vice program  was really important to actually giving Amy a lot of one-on-one time that she would not have otherwise gotten.  That she bonded with the volunteers that were with her. Some of them became her besties. And I think she also then grew up in a home that was  really over the top celebratory of each little achievement. And I don't know if we would have been that way without

48:22
Sarah being who and how she is.  I mean, there  are hard parts to having Sarah as a sister. If Amy needs to use the bathroom as humans do, Sarah sometimes is fine with it and sometimes  goes and screams outside the bathroom door and bangs on it.  And we can't figure out exactly why the difference here or there. But I see the way that Amy moves through the world. And I

48:46
I don't know. She is such a sparkly ray of sunshine and she's so loving and kind. And I wonder if some of that  did come from being immersed in a home  where that was the real mission and that she is great with interacting with Sarah and playing with her. She always has been.  And then if we encounter people out in the world who have special needs in whatever way, I feel like she's got a space.

49:16
for people to be people in whatever  way that is.  again, I don't Other 14 year olds don't?  Yeah, well, I don't know. Maybe they would.  She's got a really good group of friends. And so I feel like all of them maybe would. I feel like it could go two ways. I think that question, and I'm not trying to call out anything. I think it could go two ways. I think there could be the version where the 14 year old grows up and is resentful  of the experience  of all these people coming in and out and all this other stuff.

49:46
or  the way you describe and embrace it and that this has made both of your daughters  better people  because of all the individuals coming through the life and caring and, I mean, we should all be so lucky that so many people come into our lives in that compressed amount of time and love us in that way. I mean, can't imagine how  much more enriched the rest of us would be if we had

50:15
that experience and maybe that's the sign from this conversation is like, just go out and like love the people around you in the ways that that they need to be loved. Because that's what you did for Sarah, right? Like she needed to be loved or shown love in a different way in her way. We all have that, don't we? Yes. And I sometimes I think we don't think about that. Yeah. And she and Amy were so different in some ways. Like, Amy did not want to be corrected about anything.

50:45
She probably got that from me.  Whereas Sarah has always taken correction to her speaking, like a million times over, and she's willing to practice saying a word  so many times. Like it just doesn't phase her. And she takes piano lessons now and they do recitals twice a year. She goes up, if she messes up, eh, whatever.  She's just, I know, I know that would not be me. But it is interesting to see the different ways that they present. And I love the two.

51:15
strong personalities that they have. Like they both have really different tastes of clothes or how to dress, how to do things. And sometimes it overlaps, I, and I'm sure it's not always sunshine and rainbows, right? Like, I'm sure there's no, no, we definitely often have some stresses and especially, you know, if Sarah and I clash and then if Amy's not in a great moment too, then it's the three of us just, you know, your husband has to suddenly go out of town.

51:43
That happens a lot. He travels for work. yeah. But I think, I think the thing that really just was shown over and over and over through our years and continues is that we can have big blowups. We can get mad at each other. So mad. And then within minutes we are back to patching things up saying,

52:08
I'm sorry, this is what was going on for me. I love you. We're hugging, we're snuggling, we're laughing again.  We really  deeply love each other so much and we have a lot of different ways to talk about feelings.  We used to say we're on the wrong ball  or  on the wrong tandem bicycle together.  We also, we love Frog and Toad stories  and somebody made a little cartoon version of those also. And so we can relate, Toad can really...

52:38
have some emotions and Frog is very like calm.  And so if Sarah's upset, I might call her Toad and that might help her like shift out of or Mo Willems and the pigeon and elephant and piggy books, all these characters. They're so helpful because then we can bring them in and talk about it. And so  I think we're just really transparent with each other about what's going on. Yeah. Yeah. I think there's something about being open  and having the space to  be comfortable enough to

53:08
be fully transparent. think, you know, like for me growing up, I didn't have that. I felt like I could only be two things like happy or mad.  Couldn't be sad. Couldn't be, you know, I couldn't have all those other emotions. And I think there's something really healthy about that. You know, as we kind of wrap up this conversation, I think of, you know, have this  question, the impossible question that I ask everyone at the end of these episodes.  But I feel like yours is a little different for me because I  love to think about maybe if you have the opportunity.

53:38
to go back to young five, six year old Jenny that was dreaming of being a mother and this beautiful experience you were going to have. What would  this version of Jenny, you today, what would you say to that one about this journey?  Gosh, I  feel like a maltier thinking of it.  Because I think that it helps me see that I have been a really good mom. I would say like, you're going to be a good mom, go for it.

54:08
Yeah, because it's not, I mean, I think we paint these pictures  as kids, right? Or we paint  these idyllic pictures and like the truth is the experience that we have with all the bumps and  the trips and the spin arounds and all the things that happen, that's what makes it beautiful, right? Like I feel like that's where we  really can shine. It's not, the other version is boring.

54:33
in my opinion, right? Like, I feel like it's like this boring, cookie cutter thing that we have up here that's not real. But like, yeah, you've been a damn good mom. Even what makes I think what makes you  an even better mom is that you're open to the emotions you had when you were not feeling like a good mom, because I think that's real. And I think that's so relatable.  And like,

54:57
Nobody feels like a good mom all the time. Nobody feels like a good person all the time. But we pretend that we are in front of everyone. And it's so important when we can look back and we can say, damn,  that part sucked. And I would not want to live that again.  But I would live it again because where we are now, we're here because of that. Do you look at your life like that? Do you look at all these little things that took maybe too long in some opinions, but we're perfect for the where you are right now?

55:27
Yeah, I really marvel at where we are now. I marvel at where Sarah is and  just sort of our family as a whole, because it's certainly not where I would have predicted necessarily. It still seems like a miracle. I still, as I watch Sarah ride her bike, I'll be like, oh my gosh, remember when I didn't know if she would crawl? Wow. Yeah. This is a weird question, but

55:55
But are you glad you have this version of your life? Yes. Yes, I really,  really  love my life. Yeah.  With all its...  With all the bumps. With all the parts. Also, I'm thinking the times that I marvel most about my husband and really  love him so much are the times when I see him being so thoughtful and creative with the kids.

56:21
and how he responds, especially if Sarah's having a hard time.  It's like a work of art and that is so beautiful. And  while I'm not running a program anymore, we still actually, I feel like we have people who kind of fit the role of  having a team. We have a sitter who is just absolutely phenomenal. So even though I'm not working, I still have them come to the house because they do amazing things with Sarah to help her.

56:51
towards her goals  and are an amazing friend to Amy. It's like  people need, in my opinion, more than just parents to be giving good adult input.  And so that is priceless. And then we also really lucked out with Sarah's bus driver for the past two years. Just on day one, they became best buds. And he's one of her most favorite people in the world. And it's just,  I feel like  so blessed to have that.

57:20
One of the things I think that happens with kids or having kids or maybe pets too is like, you can think that you understand the world or a situation you're going through it. And then they'll say or do something that is just something you would never come up with ever. And it is hilarious. And so I'm laughing in ways that I feel like  nothing else could have tickled that part of me.

57:42
I think your story is beautiful. think it's messy and it's imperfectly perfect. I feel like it's one of those.  Thank you for sharing it in this way. Thank you for entertaining maybe some of my wacky questions or taking a soft track.  I appreciate that because I don't know.  I say this often and it sounds  silly because I say it so often, but every conversation I get to have on this podcast  heals some little part of me or...

58:09
reminds me of some part that maybe I lost of my own life that maybe I can incorporate now.  So thank you for being part of this journey in this way. It just really means a lot. Well, I am thrilled, thrilled to have been having this conversation with you.  Well, I'm sorry I made you cry.  No, that's the best.  This gives me something to think about because, you know, why am I moving through my days  still judging myself as a mom  if that would be the message that I would give to my young self?

58:39
Why am I not giving that to myself now? All right, write it down. Yeah.  If people want to like read your book, check out what you're doing, be in your orbit, connect with you or just reach out and say, hey, this part of your story really resonated with me. I'm going through the same thing right now. Like what's the best way to get in your orbit? My website is watching sarahrise.com. The book is called Watching Sarah Rise, a journey of thriving with autism.

59:06
I'm on Facebook and Instagram  as Jennifer Celeste Briggs, author. Perfect. Well, we'll put the links so people can easily get to them in the episode description, show notes, whatever we want to call them today.  I highly encourage you, if you're listening and something that  Jenny said  resonated with you or you're going through or you're feeling a very similar way, reach out to her, bug her, tell her. I think she'll welcome that.  Yeah. think it's really important to be heard and be understood.

59:35
and have someone there that also kind of relates to what you're talking about.  And then another gift I would love to ask everyone to give is if there's someone in your life that maybe needs to hear this conversation, share this episode with them, because  you never know how it's going to hit someone in the right way. So please do that.  Thank you again, Jenny, for being a part of the LifeShare podcast. Thank you so much. I will be back next week with a brand new episode. Thank you, everyone, for listening. If you have an opportunity, please.

01:00:03
head over to Apple Podcasts and write a nice review like Jenny did for me. So  thank you and I will see you next week.

01:00:20
For more information, please visit  www.thelifeshiftpodcast.com