What the Military Taught Jill Schulman About Bravery and Self-Worth

00:00 What if the bravest thing you can do isn't pushing through, but asking for help when it's hard? In this episode, author and Marine Corps veteran Jill Schulman shares the moment that she nearly walked away from the military and how a surprising act of empathy changed the course of her life. It's a story about resilience, identity, and the quiet kind of bravery that builds over time. actually walked into the ROTC unit at one point, but I went in to quit. 00:29 And I told him, said, I can't do this. My grades weren't great my second semester, because the divorce was really impacting my dad in a low way and he really needed me. And so I just told him, I can't do this. I just need to go home. I felt like I need to take care of my dad. So I just went in and said, hey, I can't do this deployment over the summer. You'd think they'd be like, can't take it. You can't cut it. All right, we're just going to let you go. But they were the most understanding and they said, 00:57 You know, as an organization, if you're going through something hard personally, we want to be there for you. I'm Maciel Houli, and this is The Life Shift, candid conversations about the pivotal moments that have changed lives forever. 01:22 Hello, my friends. Welcome to the LifeShift Podcast. I am here with Jill. Hello, Jill. Hello, Matt. Well, thank you for being very fancy for the LifeShift Podcast. Yes, I'm very fancy. Matt, I put my light on, got my fancy shirt on. For you, my friend, you just get the best version of Well, thank you for wanting to be a part of the LifeShift Podcast. This, I tell people and people are probably sick of me saying it, but it really is this. 01:50 healing journey that I never knew that I needed personally. And it's just, it's been so beautiful to talk to almost 200 people now about these life shift moments, realizing full well that we have lots of life shifts in our lives and there's lots of pivot points. And, you know, normally we kind of identify this most pivotal moment in our lives where from one moment to the next, everything was different. And sometimes that's an external force. Sometimes that's an internal fire of some sort. For me, 02:19 When I was eight, my dad had to sit me down and tell me that my mom had been killed in a motorcycle accident. And it was at that moment when he told me that everything that we had ever planned for my life was not gonna be what we planned, right? Everything was gone. That version that we had dreamed about was gone. And this was like late 80s, early 90s. People weren't talking about grief. My father sure didn't know, like he was in his mid 30s. He didn't have the toolkit to like help a 02:49 an eight-year-old to move through this. And so I assumed that everyone needed to see that I was perfect. So I just pushed away grief for about 20 years and kind of had a mess of a grief journey. But along the way, I wondered, do other people have like these significant line in the sand type moments in which everything is different? And so here I am on this journey of talking to people about all different kinds of moments. 03:17 in which everything changed. And what I found, even though our stories are so wildly different, that as humans, we have so many of the same feelings around them, emotion, you know, like all the things feel very, very similar. So that old adage of people saying, you know, like we have a lot more in common than we have that sets us apart, it's like so true, even though our experiences are so wildly different. Yeah. So thank you for just coming on this journey with me in this way. 03:47 Absolutely and the motorcycle accident, can I ask you a question? Sure is your mom? Riding a motorcycle She was a passenger. She was her boyfriend. Yeah, so she was a she was riding on a motorcycle So just something about your mother's spirit. She sounds just like she She she loved to live life to the fullest and she loved adventure and I just just sounds like your mom was an amazing human 04:11 Well, thank you for that. I think so. I think she was leaning into that period of her life. She was pretty sheltered growing up and she was 32 at the time and she was kind of starting to dip her toe in adventure. And this was their second time going across country with a bunch of other people on motorcycles. These upright, weren't like the super smooth ones or anything like that. And yeah, they just happened to have a single vehicle accident and the rest is really history. But because of that, 04:40 I've learned so much about myself and I've learned, you know, how not to grieve and then I learned how to grieve like when my grandmother got sick and so, you know, we look back at these moments that are sometimes really hard and there happen to be good things that can come from these really hard moments and it's really hard to say out loud sometimes, right? Because it seems like you should never say that but I've learned that all the feelings are okay. Yeah, exactly and as you say, like sometimes 05:07 things happen to us externally. And it's not that we ever want these things to happen, but we have a choice in that moment. Like, how are we going to move forward? What can we learn from this? Right? So sometimes the shift happens or we might say shit happens, right? The shift happens. And other times, like we need to make the decision to initiate the shift, like make shifts happen, especially if you're kind of in a rut or if you're 05:36 feeling like life is okay or not exactly what you imagine, then you've got to initiate the shift to make your life better on what you want it to be. You know what? And I think it's challenging. think that that is a very active process. I think that's something that you also have to be super self-aware and understand how you react. This is my opinion here. But talking to so many people, especially people like in my generation, we grew up very much on this checklist kind of life in which 06:04 You graduate high school, then you got to go to a good college, and then you got to graduate college, and you get a good job, get promoted. It just felt like I'm just doing all the things, and finding happiness is maybe the next check mark. You're not sure where that's going to be. So yeah, definitely need to make things happen. Yeah, totally. And as you just mentioned that when these things happen to us and we have this choice, it's 06:32 It's not easy, but we can choose to try to be optimistic about a bright future instead of pessimistic. And I just happened to study under Marty Seligman. He's the father of positive psychology at UPenn. And he has a book called Learned Optimism. And a lot of his research was on that. And it was just so interesting to learn that so many people, when bad things happen, he calls it their explanatory style, like something bad happens. 06:58 Like what is a story we tell ourselves? Like this is the worst thing ever. It's gonna, it's gonna never change. The sky is falling. It's gonna ruin everything and I can't have a good future. So we take the bad thing and we are pessimistic and we don't believe that we can have this positive future versus we can actually learn. And this is all of my psychology. So sorry, I'm gonna. 07:22 be throwing a lot of psychology at you, but what he's learned is people can learn to be optimistic. Now, this is not Pollyanna. This is not pretending like, oh, my mother just passed away. Everything's fine. Now, that ignoring our negative emotions is not healthy, but it's being a realist and recognizing what adversity has struck, but then also being optimistic that you can have this great future. So just being able to see or to learn. 07:49 how to be optimistic is the first step. And that is one of the things that makes us resilient, right? When something bad happens, like, do we have more of that pessimistic, like, nothing will ever change, it's all my fault and it's gonna ruin everything, or am I like, this really, really is horrible. However, I believe that I will be able to overcome this and I can have a positive, you know, happy future. So that belief right there, it's just, it's so predictive of future happiness and wellbeing and. 08:18 That's what triggered me when you said happiness. I mean, Marty Seligman started the field of study, which is the science of happiness and wellbeing, positive psychology. And some of his groundbreaking research on that is pretty fascinating. We can learn to do that. can. Yeah. And I think, like I said, that awareness piece for me is very much a toolbox kind of thing. At eight years old, I didn't have it. Nobody was modeling that. I didn't know how to do that. It was time period as well. So all of those things, I... 08:46 Completely agree and I know that I didn't do that because I didn't know how maybe if I knew how or maybe if That was existing in my world. I probably would have had a different life and we wouldn't be talking right now But you know, let's talk more about your story. Maybe before we get into your story 2025 How does Jill identify in the world like who is Jill? Gosh well recently I think I've had a little shift so Jill currently is Still a little my roots. I'd say one-third 09:17 of tough girl. I'm a former Marine Corps officer, so I still have that little edgy, you know, kind of brave girl, like tough girl. So one-third that and then one-third academic geek because I love research. just, love not just understanding what can make our lives better and make things more successful, but I personally feel that we have a responsibility if we're going to be telling people what to do that it should be based on evidence. So 09:47 As I talk to audiences across the country, around the globe, I'm always just dropping in the research because I want people to know that this isn't just my opinion. Jill Marine thinks you should do this. No, what does the empirical evidence tell us? So one third nerd and then just one third someone who's always been someone in business driving results as a Marine in corporate America and with my own company. I love the science of high performance. 10:15 So you've got kind of like the psychology, the high performer, and then the Marine. And you kind of put all those three things together and that's Jill. Yeah. Well, I also think just from the 18 seconds that I've known you now, there's a really positive like energy as well. Like I feel like you have a really like happy energy. Is that true or is that you just putting that on for me? No, I think it's something that is genuinely me. I just, I love. 10:43 people who are positive and optimistic, I know, again, based on the research, that whatever energy we have is contagious and it makes an impact on others. So one of the things that I like to teach too is, I mean, I have some days where you wake up and you're exhausted and maybe something happened and you're kind of down. And one of the things that we know based on Barbara Fredrickson's research, she wrote a book called Positivity, is that we can choose to change our emotional state to best serve us, our teams, our families. 11:13 know, whoever we are around. So I try to proactively model that and choose, you know, if I'm wake up in kind of the wrong side of bed, I think about what things can I do to try to generate the positive emotions that will best serve me. these are the things that people don't talk about in corporate America, and I'm trying to talk about them. you know, literally when they study like the either the positive emotions versus the negative emotion has a huge impact on culture results, productivity. 11:41 So yeah, thank you for noticing, but I think it comes naturally, but I also intentionally create the positive emotions. So it radiates. That's probably a practice, but also I think that's a good thing, a nugget for people to pick up because we can wallow in things. And sometimes I do, and I acknowledge it. And I say, is not forever. And I have my tools to get through whatever this is. 12:09 and I kind of moved through life back into the normal state. I can't win them all, but I try. Exactly. Well, maybe you could kind of paint the picture of your life leading up to the life shift moment that we're going to kind of center things around and you can go back as far as you need to to kind of paint the picture of who Jill was before that. Yeah, think my biggest, the first big shift in my life is I grew up in Minnesota in the Midwest. 12:37 I had a pretty normal childhood, but I just, knew I wanted a shift. I wanted something different or more. Like my father still lives to this day in the same little tiny town I grew up in, Prior Lake, Minnesota. And for him, that's what he wants, right? And a lot of people, sometimes we call them like townies, they just, they love to stay in the little hometown, right? For me, I wanted to kind of spread my wings. that's where I decided to pursue a career in the Marine Corps. So I ended up 13:05 competing for and being awarded a four-year scholarship on the Marine Corps. So I would go to college first, they'd pay for it, and then I'd become the United States Marine. So that was a big shift. And I gotta tell you, I gotta paint the picture, because that sounds like, oh, that just sounds like such a wonderful transition. I'm sure it was really easy, but it wasn't. I got on a plane in Minnesota to head to San Diego. I was going to school at the University of San Diego, so in Southern California. And I was really, really a little nervous about... 13:33 reporting in because I didn't really know anyone in the military and I was reporting into not just college, but it was to the military unit, right? To the ROTC unit, Reserve Officer Training Corps in the Marine Corps option. And I wanted to look professional and it was hot in the summer. So like, what do you wear? I mean, this is such a girly thing to say, but I chose a very professional looking outfit. It was these silk shorts. And back in these days, it was like the pleated pants that kind of went down almost to the knees and they were hot pink. 14:02 with white polka dots and then there was a shirt that was matching and then the collar matched there and then I didn't want to wear super high heels because that would look a little too girly so I wore like little pumps. Thought that was the perfect choice and I had the perfectly manicured nails in the perfect shade to match. That was me reporting into my ROTC unit with Marines. Now imagine that, now imagine anything you've seen in the movies about a screaming Joel Sargent and that was the beginning of my... 14:30 my journey, my shift, and it wasn't pretty. I had someone the first day telling me, you will never make it as a Marine. And he was absolutely confident that he's like, you will never make it as a Marine. And in those moments, you've got to make that choice. I could have gotten on a plane, went back home, and I could have gone to college in Minnesota, around all my loved ones and my family, where it would have been easier. Or I could choose to move forward into a path that I know would be arduous, full of... 14:57 and downs and it wouldn't be easy. you so that was really my first, you know, choice or my shift. obviously because I came a Marine, you know, the story is I kept going and I was horrible in terms of my physical fitness the first couple of years. Like I thought I was in shape. Like I played tennis. I was a cheerleader. I was a swimmer. So I'm like, I'm in great shape, right? And then you start running the hills of Southern California at the pace that male Marines do. Like, you know, I was pretty pitiful. 15:26 I couldn't climb a rope or anything, but I stuck with it. Three years after I first reported in that three years later when I went to Officer Candidate School, I finished as the top officer candidate from my school. it was quite a story that I'm proud at the end, but it was not a pretty journey. It was hard. Sometimes the really nice journeys are hard. I think you have to challenge yourself. 15:51 Why did you choose that? Was it because you could go to college or were you just really interested in the Marine Corps? It was more of a, I think two things. I really wanted something that was meaningful. I think both of my parents had jobs and the jobs earned a paycheck and the meaning of their jobs was I need to get paid to support the family, but they didn't really enjoy their work. in a good way, what I learned from my parents is I'm like, I want to pursue a career that I think 16:19 really matters or is more intrinsically motivating. And then the other thing is I just really wanted to be able to spread my wings and, get out of Dodge, get out of Dodge and live a bigger life. And, you know, I thought I wanted to go to the Academy route, but then I really wanted to have fun in college, which is code for I wanted to party in college. And then you can't really do that as much. You can't really do that in the Academy. So when I learned you can get this full. 16:46 ROTC scholarship that was, you know, I decided to go that route and I figured like, what the heck? Like, let's try it. And I chose the Marine Corps. People asked me that, well, why'd you choose the Marine Corps? And I'm like, duh. It's kind of known as the few, the proud, right? So I was definitely attracted to the Marine Corps. I wanted Marine Corps as my top one. Yeah. And so it kind of, you wanted to somewhat escape this. 17:14 little tiny town and was there anything to escape or was it just like it's too small? Like I gotta get out of here. I gotta pause down. what? I think the one thing that is relevant and when I applied for the scholarship I didn't know but this is the time where my mom and dad had just split up and were getting divorced. So like when I was coming home it wasn't like I'm coming home to this like loving home. There was actually a lot of kind of chaos and unhappiness and again I didn't know that when I applied but I was 17:44 Trying to get out of what I saw is a little bit of a small town. I don't want to offend anyone that still lives in Prior Lake because for some people, that's their dream to live in the same town that they've always been. For me, I just wanted to experience more in life, so I wanted something more. There just wasn't really any desire for me to ever go back. I loved my experiences. I loved growing up in Minnesota, but I really didn't want to spend the rest of my life and career there. 18:12 Yeah, I think sometimes we see the people around us and as much as they are loving what they're living and doing, you're like, I also can see how easy it would be to get stuck here. because it is so comfortable, because everything is so routine, it's just so easy to stay in that little nice flow of the river, right? But sometimes we're like, and then when you're young, you probably have all this energy too. 18:40 I would imagine that a small town is kind of socially isolating in its own way. Yeah, totally. And one of the things you're making me think about too is like if you, if we're talking about life shifts and you really think about what, what kind of a life do I really want? Like, you know, what, what is missing now? And if I were to dream about the life I want, what does that look like? Right. You you really need to figure out like who has made the shift or who's doing. 19:07 or living the life that you want to live. And then it makes sense to surround yourself with those kind of people, right? So if you surround yourself with the same people you've always surrounded yourself with for your whole life and you want to shift and that's, the people who love you the most might give you advice of like, don't make a change. Oh, don't take a risk. Don't do that because they love you and they want you to stay safe. So they don't want you to make a change and they want to keep you close. So when you do want to make that shift, you know, you've got to 19:37 identify those people and then make those people your network of people to encourage you to keep going or to give you advice on how to be successful. So I really believe in, you know, finding people that can support your journey. And usually they're not the people that you currently hang out with. So we don't need to fire our friends. Like we love our family members and our friends we've had together. But if you want to make the shift, you've got to develop relationships. And it takes bravery to like approach people that maybe intimidate you because they're doing what you want to do. And then 20:04 forming a relationship and asking for help. This takes bravery. Like, I don't really know what I'm doing. Will you help me? Or. Did you have people when you were like 17, like in your space that were like dream big girl? Or did you have people that were like, don't go, it's scary out there. I didn't really have anyone. I had this internal desire. If anything, my parents are like, why do you want to do this? So I don't know really where, I get asked that a lot and I don't really. 20:32 Now, the only thing I can think of though, Matt, is my neighbor across the street, she had a cousin who went to the Air Force Academy, I believe. And I remember hearing the stories of it. So sometimes you just hear a story. And so that is a story that stuck with me that wanted me to pursue it. So I think I had one conversation with them, like as I was applying, just to go, what is it like to go into one of the academies? 20:55 But it was even just the story of like, oh, that's a future life. You're serving your country, you're in the military, you're flying out of Minnesota. That was just the story that inspired me. Well, it kind of plants a seed. It gives you possibility, right? It gives you that there's permission to do things other than what you're doing. I think for me, was like, and I think this might have been trauma-informed, but I didn't feel like there were too many choices. When I was going through high school, it was like, 21:25 The next thing I need to do is I need to go to college and I need to do the thing that I can get the best grades and get the best job from so that a lot of it was I was afraid my dad was going to abandon me, just planted in my head. He wasn't going to. I don't think he would have. But it was like, if I'm not perfect, he's going to leave. So everything I did felt like very much like I just didn't have a dream. I didn't have a dream for any kind of job or anything like that. It was very narrow. that's where those questions are coming from is like, I wouldn't have 21:55 I wouldn't have felt like I could dream about something big because it wasn't on this map. Right. Oh my gosh. And if we can't dream about a future that is motivating and inspiring, then that's kind of a recipe for not a real healthy mental state if you don't have something to look forward to, right? And strive for. But were the people around you like classmates and stuff? Were they more of your mentality? Like I'm out of here. I'm going to do something big. Or did you have the people around you that were more like, 22:24 like I described myself. I would say, think, now you're, I'm aging myself here because it's a long time ago, but I don't really remember. I think most of the kids that I was surrounded with were all going to pretty much local colleges, right? So I was definitely, I think part of it too is, know, I don't, my high school experience, like I was kind of a nerd, you know, I didn't. 22:52 I had a good experience. I had good academic experience. I was in a lot of sports. I wasn't popular. I wasn't cool. I wasn't popular. I don't know. I just had kind of a blah experience, right? So I think that's part of the reason why I just want to be like, all right, I didn't peak in high school, which is maybe good. But I want to go out and have an adventure and do something different. Yeah. No, I think it's beautiful. I'm just so curious because it's not my experience. 23:18 and the people around me, all kind of just like, there were some people that like really went out and did what kind of things that you did. So I love that. I also love that you showed up fancy on day one and you were told, no way, this is not, this is not gonna be your thing, girl. Is that something that lit a fire in you? Like I'll show you, or you like, oh shit, I should go home. It did, I mean, in that moment. 23:45 It was really obviously hard to hear because the gentleman who told me that is someone I just really looked up to. So was really hard to hear. But if you tell me that I can't do something, it does at lights of fire. And I really wanted to prove him wrong. So in the moment, I thought it was so devastating. This is where you can look back and go, you know, I am so happy he said that on day one because there's so many times that I wanted to quit, especially that first year. 24:10 Because there was two females that were in the unit. The other girl quit my freshman year. So then I was the only one standing. I was the last girl standing. So there's a lot of times where I wanted to quit. And the reason I didn't is because that was like haunting me. I'm like, no, I've got to prove him wrong. So we can look at this retrospectively. And I can say, I'm so glad he told me that on day one, because maybe that's the fire that got me through. Yeah. Were you, as you move through and were achieving things, were you? 24:38 Were you trying to impress him? Was he always part of the bubble? I had this dream that after I was commissioned and I had my bars and I earned the title of Marine that I run into him someday, as we're both active duty, out on a ship or whatever, and I would see him and I would be able to snap a... moment never happened. No. Did you encounter him throughout that or was that just that one day and it was just like right place, right time? 25:06 He was in his final year when I was a freshman and I was a mess that whole year. So the whole year he was probably thinking, this girl's never going to make it. This girl's going to make it. So he went on, but no, I never saw him again. So this is, you know, I just, I wonder if he even has any idea what an impact he had on me. He probably doesn't, right? I he was probably just being like, Oh, I'm good to be like a drill sergeant and all that. But he had a very positive impact because I got through it, I think, because of that little comment. So, and this is one of the things like when things happen. 25:36 when things like this happen to us, here's, have a choice, right? Like, are we going to believe it and are we going to let it be the self-limiting belief or are we going to let that motivate us to drive us moving forward? Right? And I now know psychologically, we can take things that happened, like even someone telling you, can't do it. And you can try to see the truth and your optimistic future. And I think I just did that naturally back then. I just kind of told them like, I'm going to prove them wrong, but you know, sometimes these things can. 26:06 if someone says they're not very good, they believe it. And then that ends up becoming like the career limiting or, know, which is so sad. So we've got to, we've got to learn to, you know, I'm really passionate about just agency, you know, in life, or you can control your happiness, your wellbeing, your success in life. And that's really what all my research is about, about bravery. It's, is take the wheel in life and decide where you want to go. Do not let life happen to you. Like decide. 26:36 what you want to have happen in your life. And when people realize that they can create the life that they want, it's so empowering, it's so inspiring, and it's the truth. You can. Part of me wonders, if I had heard that, I probably would have fought like you did, but I wonder what my motivation would have been. Would my motivation have been, no, I want to achieve this because this is what I want? 27:02 Or would my motivation be, no, I'm going to prove that guy wrong? Did you have those conflicting thoughts? Or did you know, no, this is my dream, and I'm going to do it, and the byproduct is proving him wrong? Or the other way? I think I had the goal. And part of it was college was going to be covered for four years. So free college and a guaranteed job was the goal. And I still want to do that. I also had a grandfather who was a United States Marine. 27:30 So and he fought in World War II. So a little part of me from the family legacy, I really wanted to do it. But my primary motivation is I just I wanted to get my degree, you know, serve my country. And then what this senior midshipman said to me was just there's a little bit of that motivation that kept me going through all four years. Yeah. A little fire. Keep that fire going. Yeah. What did you learn most about yourself? Because it sounds like you went in kind of spunky, but like in a good way. That's a good compliment. 28:00 I think this is one of the lessons everyone needs to learn, which is what I learned about myself is it was really hard and it just, there were so many like low moments and I struggled and struggled and struggled and that is normal on your path for developing any skill. Anytime you set an ambitious goal for you, that's uncomfortable, that takes bravery to say, I want to achieve that and you start moving toward it. What I learned is the path 28:29 to achieve that is not gonna just be sunshine and rainbows. This is what I thought. I'm like, I'm gonna get there and they're gonna roll out the red carpet and it's gonna be sunshine and rainbows. Especially because it is San Diego. I mean, I grew up in Minnesota. Yeah, exactly. literally the campus of USD, one of the most beautiful campuses, it's a small private Catholic school and you can see the ocean, I mean, it's just absolutely gorgeous. But that journey. 28:58 between where you are now and that ambitious, challenging, scary goal that requires bravery, it is not going to be just a linear line of just like, I'm gonna keep working, it's just gonna be there. There's going to be ups and downs and turns and adversity along the way. And the choice to get through those tough times and to endure and to keep showing up, that is what separates the people who achieve. 29:27 the greatest things in life and the people that don't. A lot of people encounter some adversity and say, see, it doesn't work. So it's learning that the greater the challenges and adversity, if it's a really wild ride and you stay on and you keep going, that leads to not just the success at the top of just saying, I achieved it, but it's who you become in the journey. 29:52 And it's the increase in your self-confidence and your self-efficacy, you know, of fighting through and working really hard. So I want to just relate it back to another research that I know, which is growth mindset. Carol Dweck's work from Stanford of, you know, some people believe in fixed mindsets, like, oh, I'm not marine material, I could never be a marine, right? Versus saying, I'm not marine material yet. 30:19 it's going to take a lot of hard work and effort, but I can do anything I want. It's going to require a lot of effort, persistence, et cetera. So that's really what I learned about myself is that lesson that the greater the challenges and adversity, the greater the reward on the other side. And it's not just the accomplishment, it's who you become in the journey. That's what I learned. I think I could go two ways here. First, I want to know, this is really... 30:48 low of me. What was a moment where you wanted to quit? Like why? Where were you when you were close to like, I don't know about this? Because I think we all have those moments. And sometimes we give in. we give in. Yeah. It really it was the first year or two things that happened to the first year as a Marine. One of the most important factors to be successful as a Marine is not just you know, knowing 31:18 had to be a great Marine, but physical fitness is a huge part of it. And when I couldn't keep up in the runs, like anyone knows, one of the most shameful things as a Marine is if you can't keep up in runs, it's called falling back. So everyone is like running in formation. And if you can't keep pace and you start creating a gap and then eventually people just have to go around you, so you're the one like running, jogging behind or walking, like there is nothing more shameful. 31:47 And that was me. And so I felt like this guilt or the shame, right? And so those are the moments. And especially when the other woman quit and then at the same time, like things at home were not well and my dad really kind of needed my support. And I was thinking like, I should just go home. My dad needs my support. This is not working. just, the first full year, I still couldn't keep up and runs, right? And those are the moments where 32:16 You know, I said, am I cut out for this? Should I just go back home? I got a year of school for free. So those are some, some real moments of, of looking in the mirror. Cause I wanted to be, you want to be good at what you do. And I wasn't good at it yet, but now in retrospect, I'm so glad that I stayed at this point. When I look back right now, I'm glad I was, I was such a. 32:39 pitiful case in the beginning and not really strong because I think I got more out the experience and growing and overcoming than some of the people that came in that there's a couple guys that were in my class and they were already like cross country runners. They were cross country running stars from their high schools. So when they came in the physical aspect, like they didn't have to overcome as much, right? And they've gone on to have very successful careers in the Marine Corps as well. But now that I look back on it though, it's the fact that I decided to keep going and I actually walked into the ROTC unit at one point. 33:08 I haven't ever shared this before on a podcast, but I went in to quit. And I told him, I said, I can't do this. My grades weren't great my second semester, because the divorce was really impacting my dad in a low way and he really needed me. And so I just told him, can't do this because after your freshman year in ROTC, in Naval ROTC, you have to basically go active duty and deploy over the summer. And I'm like, I just need to go home. I felt like I need to take care of my dad. So I just went in and said, hey, I can't do this. 33:37 this deployment over the summer, I did need to go home to be with my dad, to help him. And what surprised me is such great empathy and understanding from my commanding officer. You'd think they'd be like, you can't take it. You can't cut it. All right, we're just going to let you go. But they were the most understanding. And they said, as an organization, if you're going through something hard personally, we want to be there for you. 34:06 They gave me resources for myself and my dad, allowed me to not go on that first deployment, to take care of my family and come back so I could be ready to train again when I came back. so the march into the commanding officer's office to say, I need to walk away, didn't go the way I thought it would be out, that they would just accept it. And he's like, no, we're not going to accept it. You belong here. You are going to be great. 34:33 And if you've got some things that you're working through, we're gonna support you. So I am so thankful to that first commanding officer of believing me. And this is where you wanna surround yourself with people that are gonna not just say, yeah, go ahead and quit, but you wanna surround yourself with people that are gonna call forth your best and say, keep going. So that was a moment I did try and quit, but they didn't let me. They said, I believe in you and that helped me believe in myself. 34:58 Well, mean, I think that's beautiful. You have these two fires and just these two moments where the dichotomy could not be like, I mean, it's just like you can't do it. You're like, yes, I can. And then you're like, I can't do it. And they're like, yes, you can. And it's just like this beautiful. It's kind of these beautiful markers of showing that things are not linear. Right. And we have feelings. And part of the thing that I think listeners can get from that story is more. 35:26 You were really advocating for yourself at that moment. Although you were thinking, I'm going to quit, you were like going to talk to someone to say, look, I got to get out of here. Here's what's going on. You could have just said, I quit. I'm not giving you a reason. But you're like, here's my story. Here's what's happening. And you gave the vulnerability and the ability for other people to show up for you. And sometimes we don't do that. We don't share the story around whatever decision we're making. And we're missing out on the opportunity 35:56 or other people are missing out on the opportunity to show that empathy or to show you that they can support you through hard times. So, I mean, I love that part of the story. I love that you decided to share it because I think a lot of people can relate to those moments of like, this is hard. Life is hard. It's not even just the Marines. It's like life can be hard and you just want to quit at certain things. And asking for help and support that you need. 36:24 is a strength and it requires bravery. So in my research, I've got like the three things, like evidence-based practices that helps you build more bravery to pursue those things that you want. And one of them is brave relationships. So it wasn't until you asked me this that I connected with that experience, right? With what it shows in the research. But if you have a goal of something that's really challenging, there will be ups and downs. And if you want to be able to get through those times, you... 36:52 have to be able to develop these brave relationships where you're not only connecting with people who have done what you want to do, but then you have to go and you've to be vulnerable. And so many times when I'm speaking to audiences, there's some people in the audience that look outwardly very brave. Like I have a lot of friends who are former military or a lot of friends that are law enforcement and they're all like, oh, I'm just super brave. And then I have them take my bravery assessment, right? And we talk about different types of bravery. One being, are you brave enough to 37:22 admit when you're stuck and you need help. That's where I'm like, you're not so brave, are you? You're not so brave, are you? So we can work on that. then, and it's so empowering when they realize like, wait, I'm not supposed to always just pretend like everything's okay. Like, oh, everything's perfect. Everything's successful. Like, no, like if you're struggling with overcoming a challenge or you don't, you know, I use the analogy of just climbing a mountain. If you're going to climb a mountain, right? Let's say someone wants to eventually climb Mount Everest. Are you just going to figure it out on your own? Or are you going to ask some people? 37:52 who climb Mount Everest, you gonna surround yourself with people so that you can avoid the pitfalls, right? And you can make sure that you get up there. Like it is absolute stupidity to pretend like everything's okay when you're struggling. We need to be brave enough to be asking for help. And that's a key. That's something that differentiates the highest performers from the people who are mediocre. Nobody wants to know it all. Exactly. You think you're just so perfect? Yeah. 38:22 And then you just know that they don't actually know it all because they're just trying to mask whatever they're insecure about. it just becomes self-fulfilling prophecy there. No, I mean, I think that's a really important part of your story. And sometimes it's being super vulnerable and maybe breaking down and saying, I'm really struggling. Or it can be like little things where it's just like, I've got a project at work. 38:47 And I'm a little unsure on what to do. It could just simply be saying like, hey, Matt, I'm now the project leader for this and I'm new at this and I've never really encountered this challenge before. I'm a little unsure on what I should do. Can you give me some advice or can I run my idea? It can be, it doesn't always have to be like super emotional. can be, I don't know what to do or I'm feeling, or it could be I'm feeling a certain way, or it could be I've made some mistakes and you have to admit them and learn from them. like. 39:15 All these different things are in that same vulnerability, asking for help, asking for support, admitting mistakes. Those are all things that require some bravery instead of just showing up to work and just people say, fake it till you make it, just pretend like everything's okay. No, no, please don't do that. It's gonna take you so much longer to achieve something if you just push all those feelings aside and you pretend everything's okay. Ask for the help, it speeds everything up. Yeah, well, thinking back to that moment where you walked in and you were like, I'm gonna quit and then you... 39:44 surprised, got surprised by all this help and care and, and empathy. Like, how did you feel walking? Did you feel re-energized walking out of there? And or was it still like, this is really hard? Do I still want to quit? It was more of a shock. It was more of a shock. Like, wow, like this is this is amazing. Like, they still want me, they're going to support me. Right. So I think it was a relief. And then I was able to go back and spend the summer and then I, you know, showed up. 40:12 for my second year of college and kept training and training. And I was really lucky because in my university, because it was in University of San Diego, we have a couple of Marine bases close by. we had MCRD San Diego, which is where all recruits go to train. And I was so lucky. We were able to go on base and train a lot, which was really hard because when you're going on base and you're trying to go through an obstacle course and you're trying to... 40:40 like climb ropes, of course, I wasn't good at it, but then it was the norm. was forced to do it on a regular basis because that's what our unit did. Now, let's fast forward to when I went to officer candidate school. Now I had been like suffering through that for a couple of years. So when I got to officer candidate school, I could fly through it and I could climb the rope faster than everyone else. A lot of other people showed up because they were at the university of Kansas or something and they had never seen this stuff before. So. 41:07 So yeah, think the beginning of my sophomore year was kind of like, I got this. And then my confidence was there. And I just dug in. I showed up every day and put. Sometimes you just got to grind. It's the consistency, right? Did you hit a stride? Did you feel like you hit a stride or was there always kind of like the bumps? It probably wasn't until my junior year where I really got in my stride. And it felt, did it feel like right? Like you were sitting in the right spot? Cause like probably those first couple of years felt pretty uncomfortable. Like you're. 41:37 pants don't fit, you know, and then now you're like, oh, everything fits. I think it was the moment where when I finally had the self-belief is when I went to, so officer candidate school is like kind of like bootcamp for officers. So like, you know, there's officers and there's enlisted. So you can just enlist for the Marine Corps and you go to bootcamp and you become a Marine. The officer side, you know, you go to college first, but if you can't make it through officer candidate school, you're not going to be able to lead Marines because officers are, you know, they're the ones that are college educated and they are the 42:06 They're the ones that do the strategic planning. They're basically the boss, right? So between your junior and senior year, all of these candidates, these Marine Corps officer candidates go to officer candidate school. And that's where either you make it or you don't. And most people make it. There's only a couple of people that kind of get washed out. But it was that experience when I went there. And again, I wasn't performing that well compared to all my male Marines. wasn't maybe running as fast or climbing the rope as fast, but there wasn't a lot of females. 42:35 arrived at Officer Candidate School, I realized how strong I was physically. And they measure everything, your leadership, your accuracy on everything. And I just thrive there. I loved it. I love anything that's hard and competitive. And when I graduated from Officer Candidate School, my ranking and my scores out of OCS were higher than that of even my male peers. So maybe they can run, they could still run faster than me. 43:04 But I could, because I could keep up with them, I ran faster than the girls, but then other things, other strengths that I had surpassed them. I did better on the academic tests. I could shoot more accurately. could, you know, all the things that required, you know, a lot of the thought and strategic planning, I did really well. So I think that's when I hit my stride where I realized I'm like, you know, overall, I'm great at this and I love it. So that's when I hit my stride. was that, that's what gave me the boost of confidence. 43:33 Kind of makes me think of like when sometimes we're so focused on something really small and then we take a step back and we see the big picture and we're like, oh, well, it's all there. And we fixate on sometimes our weaknesses. So this relates to like, you know, let's recognize what are our natural strengths. Let's leverage those to be successful. Now, if we have a weakness that is preventing us from delivering at work, then we need to work on those so that we're at least at a minimum. yeah, focusing more on what you have and what your strengths are. 44:04 that's gonna lead to higher levels of self-confidence and work satisfaction, et cetera. So there's another like little tie-in of what the research says about recognizing and leveraging your strengths that I realized. So I finally recognize my strengths and it's not just all about physical ability. I mean, it's important in the Marine Corps, but it's not everything. Yeah, no, I love that. And so what happens in between? I know we're like, yeah, like, now you're just like, you've got this book going, all this research, like, first of all, where do you keep all that in your head? 44:33 because your head must not have a lot of space in it anymore. Yeah. This has been so great to take a step, because it's been a long time since I went through all this. I'm seeing all these little parallels to what I now write about and speak about. So thank you. This has been like, feel like I'm in a therapy. This is great to relate everything. But if I fast forward, so I served for five years, a little over five years active duty, I made another shift. And this shift was perhaps even more scary getting out of the Marine Corps. 45:03 When you are a service member, if the only thing you know is how to serve and be in the military, getting out and going to civilian world is actually so scary. So I had to make that shift. What made it a little bit easier is when I got out, there's recruiters that try to place like junior officers getting out and they told me how great the pharmaceutical industry was. 45:28 And I'm like, what industry? What is that? And they're like, oh, go into pharmaceutical sales. It's such a great career. And I was very much like, I'm a captain of Marines. I'm above sales and medical. What? they just said, and they said in a very nice way, like, okay, hot stuff. Like just go practice your interviewing skills. At least that'll benefit. So I'm like, fine. So I interviewed with a couple of companies and the second company that I interviewed with, the hiring manager was a former wrinker officer and it was just meant to be. then my next... 45:56 13 and a half, 14 years, I was in the pharmaceutical, biotech and device industry and I loved it. Really? I fell in love with the science. I had no idea how much I loved it, but I loved learning about the science and then how you can present the evidence to have better outcomes for patients. So I I thrived and loved it I did very well and I moved up. And then my last job that I had in the pharmaceutical industry was doing leadership development. So I moved up and then I... 46:24 loved learning how to lead and getting even better. So that was my last job. And then I made another shift. I decided to start my own leadership development company instead of doing it as a job. So that was another big shift, another scary shift. And so I did that and that's been 11 years with the company. And then my last shift was deciding to go back to school and study the science of happiness and wellbeing because, you know, it's really the most important thing in life. Right. So, and now I'm on a 46:53 Now it's on another shift where instead of just doing, you know, delivering leadership development workshops, which I still love doing and my company does, but now I want to really take my research and try to bring it to the larger world so that people realize that anyone can become brave. You just need to know how, and it's not just for Marines or Navy SEALs or firefighters. Like there's like little everyday things we can do to be brave for ourselves. 47:21 Right? So we can go after what we want. You know, there's so many moments that we sometimes can decide to be brave or we can cower. And in those little moments, think of each day, day in and day out, if people have these little moments like, oh, I need to have a hard conversation, right? Like you choose to be brave or to cower, you know, maybe it's having a hard conversation. Maybe a week later, it's putting your name in the hat for a position you really want. And you decide to. 47:48 not go forward to cower versus be brave. And then next week there's an idea that you have and you're a little nervous about sharing it and you were about to raise your hand, but you decide not to share it. Like all these little things add up over time. So I call it the bravery effect that is backed by research too. So I want people to realize like bravery isn't just running into a boring building. It's all these little micro moments and you're being brave for yourself, right? And if you can learn to do that, it's... 48:17 You know, I use the analogy as well as everyone knows this, like, you know, when you save for retirement, if you keep consistently doing these things and saving over time, you can have all this wealth at the end. Bravery is like the same way. If you learn how to make these little micro decisions of being brave for yourself versus cowering, those things can add up over time. And the consequence is your career, your success, but it's your happiness and wellbeing so that you can look back on life and not live a life of regret. 48:47 Do you think, well, you probably know because you're on research and you like that stuff, but do you think you have to have success with some of your brave choices in order to be more inclined to move into the next brave choice? Yes and no. Yes, in the case of we teach people to make brave choices that are the right level of difficulty, right? So if someone says, I want to be a Hollywood actress, 49:18 or if I want to climb Mount Everest, I wouldn't say, don't try to go for the big movie for the tryouts or don't try to climb Mount Everest in two weeks. It's too big of a challenge now. So you got to find things that are a little bit scary, but realistic. So in that way, I try to teach people, like, always kind of live on the edge of your comfort zone. Like if things aren't 49:46 a little bit uncomfortable or you're not a little bit scared, you're probably not challenging yourself enough. So that's the first part of my answer. And the second part of my answer is we learn so much by failing. And when you, when you fail at something, it's information that can help you be better in the future. And sometimes we can go down a road and we realize like, this is just not me. This, this line of work is not sparking joy. I don't think this is what I really want. 50:17 And in that case, you can just say, this is a really good learning experience. And you got to sometimes go down a wrong road to know, to turn around and go the other way. So we learn from failure. as long as we're learning from the failure, it's positive. Sounds like we just need to rebrand failure. Because everyone talks about it, right? mean, failure is learning. we all know it. Let's rebrand it so it doesn't feel so icky. 50:46 The word itself is little icky. Yeah. And even if you're going on the right path, you're not going to be great out of the gates. You're going to have those little failures. failure is kind of a sign that you're trying and that you're learning. Because if you try something and you're perfect at it the first time, first of it wasn't challenging enough, right? So yeah, so we to rebrand failure. Failure is the world's greatest teacher. 51:10 Well, if you think about working out, like you're lifting to your muscles failure, they're tearing, they're ripping so that they can get stronger and then you do more. So I mean, in its sense, like that's kind of failing. Your muscles are failing at the time and then they get better because they failed. Yeah. I love that you use that analogy because the same thing happens actually in our brain. So there's the ACC in the back of our brain. 51:38 something that you can call the bravery part of the brain. So when you do things that you don't wanna do that you're scared of or you're uncomfortable that you don't wanna do, and when you do it, it's actually just like a muscle. I use that. You don't go in and say, I wanna have big biceps, and you go and you try to lift once and then they're not big and you quit. No, it takes time and effort and lifting to failure. And the same thing happens with bravery. So if you feel like, well, I'm kind of timid, I'm shy, I'm just not a brave person, it's just like saying like, I'm just not strong and I don't have strong muscles. Like if you want, 52:07 to build that muscle you can. And so they've been able to look over time when they do like, you know, the MRI studies that that part of the brain actually grows over time if you, and it becomes easier to be brave, right? Because now you're like, oh, I have, it's amazing how our brains and our bodies adapt to what we do to it. So- It's like muscle memory, I guess. It's like muscle. Yeah. It's amazing. a way. So why are you writing a book or I'm sure it's already written, but why a book? 52:37 Just because? No, the reason I'm writing a book and trying to speak into all these things is now that I've discovered this research, so I basically did my capstone at the end of my master's program. So I studied under like Marty Seligman, who is the father of positive psychology. You do a capstone at the end. And the program that I went to, it's a master's of applied positive psychology. So it's supposed to be applying it. So when I did my research and specifically landed on bravery, I'm like, this is so needed. 53:06 so many people I talk to just they're not living the life they want or they let fear hold them back from living the life they want or doing what they want to do. And I'm like, okay, there's science behind this. The world needs it. I also had two teenage daughters who always wanted, I think their belief system is if obstacles are removed and if I choose and if life is easy, that will be happy. 53:35 And that is just not true. So when I discovered these things and I realized this is kind of a missing message that's out there, I'm like, I really want to get this message to a larger audience. And really what my company does is I usually teach 25 to 40 people at a time how to be a good leader. Right. And I'm like, I can't, I can't get this message out to a big enough audience. Like I feel like I've, I feel like I've been called to try to teach people these skills and, and in order to do that, 54:04 writing a book scales it, doing larger keynotes scales it. So it's just really all about scaling the message. Cause I mean, so many people who have learned the science and started using the practical tools, it has like transformed their life, right? And again, it's not just accomplishing the thing. Like I am who I am today because I endured all the things that I had to, to reach that peak. So it's not even about the accomplishment. It's about who you become on the journey. 54:35 I self-believe it just it's the best stuff ever. that's the reason I wrote the book is now, you hopefully people will read it, pass it along so more people can learn. Yeah, the ripple effect is going to be beautiful. You know, one person they influence another person. I love it. I love that it wasn't like, just always want to write a book, but rather I want to get this message out there. message. It's always it's got to be always about the message. I think some people write a book to be like, 55:00 I'm a published author and I just want to be famous. No, it's about the message. I don't care if people know about Jill Schulman. I want them to read the book and then I want them to pass the book along to someone else. Like if I read an amazing, amazing book that really fundamentally changes me, I tell people like, read this book. It's so good. So that the job of the book is to spread the message. Are you ready for a silly question? Sure. Okay. So it's an impossible question as well. So. 55:28 2025 Jill, if you could stop Jill walking in that silk shorts and the collared shirt and the nails done and dressed to the nines walking on your way to enter that office, is there anything you would want to tell her about this journey she's about to go on? It would probably just be, it's going to be really hard and really miserable. And your ability to 55:58 Stick with it and push through the hard times will be one of your most proud accomplishments. So savor, I was sharing this with you earlier. In the Marinko we have this saying and it's embrace the suck. Now I really believe it. So it really is like when things are really hard instead of just being down in the dumps of I would give myself the advice is the hardest things that you have to endure will become the life's greatest moments. So in those moments. 56:27 just remember that so I'm not having a pity party. I just realized that this too will pass. Yeah. Do you think she would listen? I don't know. I don't know. Kids these When you're 18 or 19, I don't know if you listen to anything. Like I'm trying to teach my kids, but I don't know. Like. Yeah. You know it all too when you're that age. I did at least. Yeah, exactly. No, I, I, I, it's a silly question, but it's always so interesting. I, know, I think back of the, the eight year old me walking into my dad's office and is there anything I could have said to him? 56:57 Probably, I probably wouldn't have listened. I probably wouldn't have heard it. But at the same time, it's just a curious question of like, what would life be like? But I think we all have to go on these journeys in the way that they unfold because it brings us to where we are now and brings you to soon around the time of this episode coming out, your book is in the world and people are gonna be reading it, putting things into practice and then like passing it along. Hopefully. 57:25 You know, it's so beautiful and congratulations to you. dedicated the book to like who I really want to read the book are my two daughters. I hope they do. And a lot of it will probably be familiar because I've been hearing me talking about it, but it's kind of funny. Like when I had beta readers read the book, the most common feedback I received is people say like, oh my gosh, I need to give this to my son, my daughter, my niece, my nephew, or or my business partner. So, you know, that the book is written as a 57:56 parable. It's not a sciency book, right? Because if you pick up a story, you got to read it. And it's just more entertaining. So, you know, I kind of wrote it for that maybe 18 year old Jill, like, you know, maybe if I would have had that book, you know, back then it would have helped. you kind of think about who you're writing it for. And it's kind of writing it for the younger generation, especially because people are getting a message that, you know, the 58:21 The key to happiness and wellbeing is you just wanna be easy on yourself and take more self-care days and just sleep in and do bubble baths and just say that you can't do it and have someone take it away. And it's just not the truth. Like true self-care is you get back up and you try again and you do the hard thing. That is keeping promises to yourself. So self-care isn't what people see on Instagram and TikTok and all that. 58:50 It's really kind of the purpose for it, I think, is to really help the younger generation realize, I want them to be happy. I want them to have the most fulfilling life. And they have to realize they got to do really hard things and endure the suck. And when they do, they'll live their best life. And I know that with scientific certainty. That's true. They could take a bubble bath every once in a while while they're doing hard things. You're right. I always say, once a week, if you take I don't want any. But at the same time, like, 59:18 If you have a self-care day five days in a row, you're just lazy. Although I would sign up for that right about now. No, I agree. I think it's beautiful. congratulations for your life's work of you building Jill, now becoming something that can be a bigger message to other people. think that's just so cool and it must be super fulfilling and scary and all the other things that come along with doing new things. life shift, 59:48 If people want to find you, find the book, get in your circle, learn more about you, what's the best way to get in Jill's orbit? Yeah. The easiest way is just go to my website, jillshulman.com. The book's available anywhere books are sold. Just the bravery effect, it'll pop right up. My request, though, is if anyone reads the book is pass it along to someone that needs it, right? That needs a little bit of that bravery in the world. But yes, that's probably the easiest. And then I'm on all social media, too. You can follow me on... 01:00:16 Instagram or Facebook or LinkedIn or any of those. And what I try to do is give a little message each day. Cause sometimes we need a little bit of that motivation, right? You know, like, so each day there's going to be a little, that little message that's going to motivate you to be brave every day in those little micro moments. So that's my, my commitment to anyone who follows me is usually it takes you about 30 seconds to 60 seconds to like watch it or, or read it. And that should give you that little bravery edge, you know, that day to make those choices. Perfect. 01:00:45 Well, we will put those links in the episode description so it's easy for people to find. They don't have to spell things. They don't have to do any of that stuff. Courage you to get the book. When you get the book, you read the book, pass it along, but also write a review. I know that will help you in that journey. It'll help other people too, because other people rely on reviews to see what it was actually like. that, I'll say, write a review for the LifeShift podcast too while you're at it. Why not? So thank you, Jill, for going down this road, telling me. 01:01:13 sharing something you said you've never said on a podcast before. So thank you for that. You've got a gift to my friend and really getting me to reflect. So thank you for like the little walk down memory lane too. That was a blast. Thank you for having me. Well, it is my pleasure to have you on this healing journey. You've said things that have now been planted and now will be used in my own life. So thank you for that. Thank you listeners for just being a part of this journey. Here we are almost 200 episodes into this. This might even be episode 200. I don't know how we go through this journey, but 01:01:42 Congratulations on your book, Jill, and I'm going to say goodbye, and I'll be back next week with a brand new episode. 01:01:59 For more information, please visit www.thelifeshiftpodcast.com