She Lost Her Brother Tragically. Poetry Helped Her Heal.

00:01 Grief can feel like it stops time, and yet somehow life keeps moving. Cyra was just 16 when her world changed forever after the traumatic loss of her brother. What followed was not only years of pain and questioning, but also the beginning of a lifelong relationship with poetry as a tool for survival and healing. In this conversation, Cyra shares how writing became her medicine, how creativity opened space for forgiveness, 00:27 and how her brother's presence continues to shape her life today. I made the decision to step away and walk down the hallway and went to my room. And I had a little bathroom there off my bedroom, and I'm like literally brushing my teeth. And it's maybe two or three minutes after that moment with David in the kitchen. Suddenly, I can hear him screaming. And I know it's from pain. And I know he's outside my window. I looked outside the window. 00:56 which had that blurry glass, and I could see orange, and I realized in that instant, oh, he is burning himself. He is not going to survive this. He is burning himself. And I turned and looked at the mirror, and this is where what I now understand was what I would call the threshold moment. I'm Maciel Huli, and this is The Life Shift. 01:22 candid conversations about the pivotal moments that have changed lives forever. 01:35 Hello everyone, welcome to the Life Shift Podcast. I am here with Cyra. Hello Cyra. Hello Matt, hello everyone. Well thank you for wanting to be a part of the Life Shift Podcast. Basically the Life Shift Podcast is based on my own personal experience of having this really pivotal life shift moment when I was eight and wondering if other people had these line in the sand moments. So when I was eight, my dad lived in Georgia and my mom and I lived in Massachusetts. So I was visiting my father for the summer, my mom was 02:05 doing a vacation with her boyfriend. And one day after summer camp, my dad pulled me in his office and he had to sit me down to tell me that my mom had been killed in a motorcycle accident. And at eight years old, it was late 80s, early 90s. So people weren't really talking about grief and people weren't like kids, oh, they'll bounce back kind of mentality. And so I assumed that I just had to show everyone that I was perfect and OK and I was going to be fine. So I pushed all that grief down. Took about 20 plus years to 02:35 finally figure out how to grieve properly, at least the loss of my mother. All the while, in that messy, messy grief journey, I wonder, do other people have these singular moments where from one moment to the next, everything about them or their life is significantly different or completely different? Turns out lots of people have many of them. I think I knew that, but then I was also a little naive thinking everyone has one big pivotal one, but we have a lot of them and we kind of move through the world. 03:04 I think most of us can identify one that maybe changed us more significantly. So I'm so glad to have you here on the show to kind of share yours because as hard as your story is, there are people out there going through the same thing right now that maybe you sharing it can give them some ideas for their own life or maybe just feel less alone in what they're going through. So thank you before we even get started for being part of my healing journey and everyone else's healing journey that's listening. 03:34 Well, I deeply appreciate your intentionality, Matt. And I'm honored to hope that anything I say today might contribute to someone's sense of healing, of feeling like the world can be a trustworthy place, that maybe there's some creativity, some hopefulness, some new hopefulness, some new degree of hopefulness for them. Absolutely would be an honor to contribute to that in any small way. I think it's 04:01 100 % possible. We never know how our stories are going to impact someone else. I've really discovered over 220 episodes now of this power of story. And I think on the surface it all makes sense, right? But I've seen it from so many angles of the power it gives the storyteller, the power it gives the person in conversation with the storyteller, and then just... 04:26 all the people listening and then the ripple effect that happens from the people that have been changed by hearing story or engaging in that. So it's just such a pleasure. And I'm so like that eight year old version of me would be lucky if he could hear these stories from other people and know that like, okay, he wasn't the only person moving through the world with a dead mom. And it really felt like I was even though I knew I wasn't, it just really felt very isolating. So I think we're gonna do that today. 04:56 Well, I just admire what you are making out of your grief journey and that sense of isolation that you had as an eight-year-old. That can be a pretty lonely, uncertain, scary place to be. So good for you to have persevered and be here and now see a transformational way to work with that. That takes intentionality. 05:23 and creativity and imagination and courage. Thank you. And 20 years of a big mess and really challenging times. And I think it just teaches you. I think all those stumbles that I went through, I can reflect on now as how I have improved my life now that I can reflect on those and see why I was doing them and kind of make sense of all that and to not do it anymore. 05:53 Thank you for that. So before we get into your story, your life shift moment story, can you tell us who Saira is in 2025? Like how do you show up in the world? How do you identify? And however you want to answer it is A-OK. Thank you. Thank you, Matt. So I'm Saira Dmitru. I live in San Antonio, Texas, and I'm sitting in what I call my writing room right here. That's my great grandmother, Bertha, right back there. 06:21 So I feel pretty connected to generations of a family. I'm 67 and have a lot of years kind of under my belt and a lot of reflection over a lot of life experiences. I work as a practitioner of poetic medicine here in San Antonio, which means in... 06:44 A shorter version of that means that I use poetry as a healing tool to create safe spaces for other people, to bring whatever is most deeply on their heart and mind or spirit in that moment. And no experience with poetry is necessary to show up in that space. My definition of the poem is the honest voice of the heart and mind and spirit and finding a way to bring that into language and putting it on the page. Or not. 07:14 but connecting with it, connecting with it in some way. So I am a mother with grown children. I'm a swimmer. I'm a year-round swimmer. Swimming has been a really important part of my healing journey. I think because of the wholeness of that particular movement, it requires a whole body. And being in water and sometimes being underwater and the rhythm of it has been, continues to be very important to me as a place to process and 07:43 feel deeply relaxed. And so I always feel very lucky to be in a, to have a body of water large enough nearby to swim in it. That's a lot of what I do at the moment. And I write, I write, write poetry almost every day. Poetry is, is certainly part of my daily life. Absolutely. Yeah. Whether I'm reading it or writing it. Yeah. And you're a published author. I am. Yes. I have some books of poems. Earlier this month, my memoir called Words Make A Way Through Fire, 08:12 healing from after my brother's suicide, which is formed from poetry and prose, was released. Yeah, looks like this. thank you. I know that's a lot of work and a lot of heart-centered work. I would say my connection to language, my connection to poetry was very early. And then learning how to work with that, I guess, as a uh 08:41 way of being and a way of expressing and then how to, I think, understanding its many dimensions and then how to offer those dimensions to other people so that it could benefit them. Absolutely, that has taken training and time and experience and learning, and I'm always learning something new. My first break that I had around 16 in the grief journey 09:07 was due to writing. Like I had to write something for a class assignment. It was like a narrative. It was the first time that I really wrote about the day my mom died and like down to the second. And it broke me, but I got so scared of what that felt like that I closed it back up and shoved it down for another 15 years or so. writing is, you know, after I found my final breakthrough moment, I guess, I did. 09:36 do writing and then podcasting came around and kind of found me there. So yeah, I love it. There's so much healing in getting the words out of our head and putting them together. And for me, things in my head are much messier and scarier. And then when I get them down on paper, I'm like, OK, this all makes sense. This is palatable. Yeah, it does. It brings orderliness to it. And writing brings orderliness to it. And it also can allow a lot of the energy of the feeling that's in here. 10:07 transferred to the page so there can be literally a transfer of emotional energy and can kind of clear out space here. But I can't help but wonder, Matt, if when you did that writing at age 16, if there had been someone who could have really witnessed that writing with you, really sat with you, received the emotional and spiritual details of what you were sharing, not look at it as an assignment for school. 10:36 that maybe ended up with a grade or not, but understanding it as a really profound expression of your soul and like holding that with you and witnessing it and supporting you and then providing ongoing support. And the reason I say that is that is a really important part of being a practitioner of poetic medicine is the witnessing. 11:02 the witnessing and holding in a very deep and tender and non-judgmental, affirmative way, someone else's healing journey, kind of step by step. It was the 90s. Yeah. Well, some of, yeah, yes, yeah, yeah. In general, I think the people around me and my family members, they just didn't have the tools. It wasn't something that they had experienced. And so there's no fault to anyone. I just wish. 11:31 that I had the tools earlier. But if I had the tools earlier, I might not be here talking to you. So like, there's all these like, weird, hard to say silver linings that come from some of these life shift moments that we have that once we get to the place where we have more self-awareness and we have the ability to reflect with kindness and honesty and those pieces, I think we can find, I don't want to say silver linings, but we can find. 11:58 something good that comes from something really, really hard that we've moved through. That was hard to say. No, I came across strongly though. It was very clear. Why don't we get into your story? I love it if you can paint the picture of your life leading up to this life shift moment and the goal being the before version of you and the after version of you. So however much you need to paint about the before version of you. 12:27 Right, thank you, thank you. So I would like to go back to like 1974, which probably seems like a really long time ago to some of you who have joined us today. So 1974, I am a teenage girl in Cincinnati, Ohio. I am one of four children. have two older brothers and a younger brother, very dear brothers. 12:55 and we live in like a suburb of Cincinnati. It's February, you know, it's been winter for a long time. It's pretty gray in Cincinnati during the winter. I'm a junior in high school. I have my driver's license. I had it for like two months, so I'm very excited. I have my driver's license. I play soccer. I write for the school newspaper. I'm pretty involved with things. 13:23 I try not to be at home an awful lot because it's just uh kind of a chaotic place. It's a loving place, but there's just a lot of turmoil, I would say, loss and confusion. And my eldest brother, David, has had quite a journey kind of up to that point. And he had been gone, kind of missing for a number of months. 13:50 So this is 1974. In 1973, he had gone out to New York City to spend some time with our grandfather. And one thing led to another. And he ended up leaving and hitchhiking all the way from Brooklyn, New York, to he ended up in Seattle, eventually. Oh, wow. A long way, just hitchhiking across the country. We really didn't know where he was for much of that time. And then one day, got a phone call and he'd had a 14:18 a breakdown in Seattle and he came home to us. But he really wasn't, as I say, kind of quite the same. So he was very depressed. There was a lot of depression there. And again, it's 1974. There's so many more resources now than there were then. And he's a guy. He's 19. He's 19. I'm 16. Yeah. So it's a Friday night in February and I am looking forward to going out on a date pretty soon. 14:47 but we have sat down to dinner, so it's my mother and my father's out of town. So it's my mom and my eldest brother, David, and my youngest brother, Peter. The middle brother, my middle brother, Noel was already in college in Indiana, about a two hour drive from there, hour and a half. And then it was a family friend. David was very quiet. 15:09 during dinner. There'd been a phone call from our brother there at college and we'd all talked to him briefly and then sat down at the table. And it was a hurry dinner because everybody had places to be except David. My mom had somewhere to be and I was looking forward to this date and Peter and Charles were heading out. So dinner was hasty. 15:33 Everyone kind of disappears except David and myself and we're in the kitchen. We're bringing in plates from the dining room and we're standing in the kitchen and I remember David just kind of stopping, putting some plates on the little table in there and then kind of stopping and like looking directly at me. And there was a lot of dark, not just darkness in his face and his eyes, I could tell he was very distressed, but it was as if 16:03 If doom had a presence, that was what I sensed around him. was almost as if there was a whirlpool of doom around him. And I was frightened. I felt scared. I felt overwhelmed. But I was also very aware in that moment that I had a kind of choice, that I could kind of step forward and try to be empathic. I don't know what I would have said or done. Or I could 16:31 I could turn away and I could get ready for my date because he was going to be coming anytime and I could step toward what felt like happiness and joy to me and getting away from the family drama. So I made the decision to step away and walk down the hallway and went to my room. We lived in a ranch style house. So I was in, I had a little bathroom there in my, off my bedroom, part of my bedroom and I'm like literally brushing my teeth. 16:58 And it's maybe two or three minutes after that moment with David in the kitchen. And suddenly I can hear him screaming. And I know it's from pain. And I know he's outside my window. I looked outside the window, which had that blurry glass. And I could see orange. And I realized in that instant, oh, he is burning himself. He is not going to survive this. He is burning himself. 17:28 And I turned and looked at the mirror. And this is where what I now understand was what I would call the threshold moment between the before and the after. And I'm going to pause for a moment and say a threshold. Like if you look at the origin of the word threshold, it's fascinating to me. It actually originally meant a stone or a piece of wood that was placed under the door. 17:58 like a door cell. So that means that it was a space in and of itself, a holding space, a very short, you know, brief kind of holding space, but a space in and of itself. And in that half minute between my understanding what he had done and going outside to actually confront the moment itself and see him and hear him and smell him and, 18:28 be confronted by the trauma of it. I had a voice speak to me and I had never had, I'd not had something like this quite before. And this voice spoke to me by name and the voice said, Saira, this is going to be very difficult for you, but you're gonna need to go out there and do what you can for your brother. But some part of you is going to have to hide and some part of you is gonna have to go out there and face this. Someday, 18:58 this will all circle back. I, it was, it changed, that in a way, in and of itself also changed everything. And because it was, it was there in the present, it was with me, it was trying to really let me know that there was some, some presence that was there with me and that this presence was. 19:24 It felt to me as if it was making a promise about the future, which a future I could not see in any shape or form at that point. But it also kind of touched upon the past in a way for just a moment, because maybe three mornings before that, I had had a dream. And in this dream, I saw my brother. We were standing out by the lane, but it was just the two of us. And he jumped on my bicycle and he rode straight into an oncoming car. 19:53 And so I witnessed him harm himself in front of me in this dream. And I remember again in that half minute, that threshold time, I thought, oh, that dream was there to prepare me in some way for what I'm about to encounter as much as anything can. Like this in and of itself is just so strange, but now I need to go outside and do what I can. And then of course there was... 20:19 There really wasn't anything that I could do to make it better for David. Basically, I could speak to him briefly and then I kind of ran in the house and then I ran through the house to go get help, to run over to the neighbors, know, call for an ambulance, call for the fire department. I mean, there wasn't it. It's not like there was a hose nearby for me to extinguish him. There was there was nothing that I could do to put the flames out. So I ran through the house. Ambulance came. 20:49 And yeah, they were able to, David was still alive. When I came back into the house, he had managed to extinguish the flames in my bathroom and then had gone down the hallway and I was able to speak to him and tell him I loved him. And then he was taken away by, the ambulance came, wrapped him up and eventually most of my family joined. 21:15 We joined up with each other in the burn unit there, the University of Cincinnati, and he survived a few hours and then he died. He died of his wounds. We had a memorial service. He died Saturday morning. We had a memorial service for him on Sunday, and everyone went back about their business on Monday. My younger brother and I went back to high school, and mom went back to teaching high school, another high school, and Noel went back to college. 21:45 We were all just stunned and shocked and just profound, profound shock for a long, long time. So the aftermath of that has in a lot of ways been the rest of my life and what I would call a lot of turning points. I'm so sorry that one for your loss, because that's a big loss of just a sibling. 22:13 there's another layer to having witnessed that and then also don't mean to put any kind of feelings on you or with you. But I feel if I had to go out there and there was nothing I could really do besides call or I feel like I would assume some kind of feelings about that. And then the time period, it probably didn't allow for as much maybe grieving and active grieving that you all needed. 22:43 We just go back to our normal routine and kind of like live as much as we can in a normal way because we don't want more attention to us. Did all of that feel like it was that way for you? Yes, I would say so. would add to that. I think my deepest, I think even deeper than that helplessness that you spoke about, not being able to do anything for him. 23:09 Even deeper than that was the question I had to myself, am I somehow responsible for this because of the decision that I made in the kitchen? In the kitchen. To not step forward, to step away. And I struggled with that one for a long, long time. And eventually I was able to really forgive that 16 year old girl. Like, of course she was overwhelmed by that. Of course, of course she wanted to She's going on a date. Yes. 23:39 And I will regret that moment always, but I forgive myself. I understand why I made that decision. And I would say, I think it has motivated me all the more through the years oh to listen, to take the time and listen and to be present for other people as best I can while taking care of myself in that moment too. But it truly is best I can and to choose empathy as best I can. 24:08 and to educate myself more as to how to be in a moment like that with someone. And before I forget, if I may, because I feel this is really important, we're talking about such a subject, suicide is just a sensitive subject. And if anyone is listening in this particular moment who is concerned about someone else, wondering whether not that might be part of what's on their mind, there is really good help out there that was not years ago. 24:39 And there is a phone number that you can call, 988-988-247 at any time of day. It's a suicide crisis line that is always staffed. And it's available to help someone who is thinking about suicide and can really talk folks away from that. It's extremely successful. Or if you're someone who's really concerned about somebody else. So 988, very easy to remember. 25:09 And there's also an organization called the American Federation for the Prevention of Suicide. You can go online. again, if you are someone who's had the unfortunate experience of losing a loved one to suicide, there are support groups around the country for survivors of suicide loss. And that's a place where you can find out more about what might be available in your own community. 25:35 I appreciate that resource. I think it's important. I think it's something that definitely wasn't on anyone's mind at this time in your life when you were in the 70s. It wasn't really things people would talk about. It was such a taboo or a uh shame that families unnecessarily took on if someone in their life died by suicide. And it shouldn't be that. And I'm glad that there's more help out there. I'm also glad that you have 26:04 Forgiven yourself. I hope that's you know, hope that's far back in your in your mind of things that you regret and because we're you mean we're kids like yeah, yeah, there's one thing and I can relate to this in a way When I was eight right before my mom went off on her trip before I went to my visit my father I threw probably one of the biggest temper tantrums I've ever thrown in my entire life at that point. I'm sure I did after but 26:33 I was like, I told her she couldn't go. I didn't want her to go. She had gone before. Like this was the second time they were going. So, but this time, I don't know if it was a feeling I had or if I was just being an eight year old, but I often think about that moment. Like, what if I had fought harder? And I'm like, you were eight, she was 32. She wasn't gonna listen to you. know, she wasn't really gonna listen to you because you're a kid. And so, you know, but I did, I carried that along for a while. Like, oh wow, what if I had fought harder? 27:04 But we can't, I mean, we can do that to ourselves, but we don't have to. Well, the what ifs, the what ifs are big. They just are. Yeah. We'll do it. know, we'll do it until the end of time. But yeah, that moment. And the threshold is really interesting because when you first described it, I was thinking like it's neither here nor there. But for you, it seemed to be like everything. It seemed to be like this really pivotal part of like 27:34 reassurance that you as a human will be resilient in your own way and you will deal with these hard things right now and things will come back around, but do you see it as like a here, neither here nor there, or do you see it as this like everywhere all at once? That's a great question. You know, I think it feels like it's more everywhere all at once in the sense that 28:05 By having this, what felt to me to be this transcendent voice speaking to me and calling me by name, I was known to this transcendent presence. was known. And that felt so mysterious and sacred and raised all kinds of questions because then I wanted to know afterwards, where is the voice now? What form is this going to take? 28:35 What is the path? I have the sense of a vision that's been offered me. I have the sense that there is a path, there's a promise. I feel as if a promise has been made. But where is the path? And the path for me, I began to see stepping stones and I was really fortunate, really, really fortunate in college to begin to see stepping stones because it was poetry, it was writing. 29:04 And I remember taking, I remember I was, I think it was my sophomore year. So I'm barely, I'm 18, 19. You I went off to college at 17. So I'm 18 or 19. So it's only been two or three years since we lost David. I'm taking a poetry writing class at Indiana University. I've sat down, I don't know, there's this image, there's an image in my mind. And I should say at that time, 29:33 in part because I had not found good counseling. just, again, there wasn't necessarily that sort of support. And I was in a tremendous amount of inward pain, emotional pain, psychological pain, spiritual pain. I still, I could still be triggered by what I, by the trauma of what I witnessed. So while on the one hand I was focused on my studies and trying to be a good student and 30:01 On the other hand, I was also trying to numb the pain. And I was doing that in ways that were not necessarily the healthiest. I was drinking. I was doing various substances. And I recognized that I didn't want to be using self-medicating in those ways. I knew that that wasn't what I wanted. I knew that there was a level of unhealthiness in that. But I couldn't quite break away from it. 30:31 So I'm struggling. There's part of me that's successful, and there's part of me that is really struggling. And that struggling part of me feels like there's this huge octopus inside of me with all these tentacles of all these feelings of shock, of horror, of confusion. It was even hard to get to the grief. Questions about responsibility, anger, all of that. And it was totally unprocessed. I just could, I had, it. 30:58 constricted my breathing, it constricted my gut, but I didn't necessarily have a name for all those tentacles. I just felt it. I had a poem I was supposed to do for class, and suddenly I had this image of waking up and seeing my head on the wall across from me. And I wrote a poem. I wrote a poem called The Faceless Day. And this poem, on the one hand, is very playful because it's about having a conversation. 31:27 with my head. But OK, well, how do you have a conversation with your head? Your head is detached from your body. So I thought that was kind of amusing. But I also realized in this conversation that there was a profound disconnect, that I was telling myself through the poem. The poem was revelatory in that way. was telling myself through this metaphor in the poem that I am very disconnected from myself. So that was number one. 31:57 the poem was a safe place to explore this. So that was kind of number two. But where the poem went was the most important part because at the end, the poem tells me, I started having a conversation with my head and my head says, oh, I can't connect with you. You're too hard on yourself. And so I say back, well, what do I do? And my head says, well, you need to 32:25 You need to listen to your instincts. And I said, well, how do I do that? And it said, you need to write, W-R-I-T-E. And so I'm beginning to write in the poem, and then I see what I think is a little bug, and it's my instinct. And so I swallow this bug, and it's my instinct. And I think what the poem is telling me is, follow your creative instincts, commit to writing, 32:54 commit to poetry, that's the path of healing. And I got the message. I came away from that poem just astounded by the whole thing, by everything. And I began to take steps in my life to turn, you know, I guess that was a life shift as well. That was a life shift writing that poem. was a kind of intervention. So I... 33:23 over time got a handle on my self-medication. And first thing I think I did was really just commit to the writing and take it very seriously and continue to take it seriously. truly, poem by poem, it just helped me find the language, a vocabulary for my confusion, a vocabulary for how this trauma felt in my body and my spirit. It just created more room for me to move forward. 33:51 and live with more intentionality, one little step, one little step at a time that over the course of decades, I mean decades. You know, something stuck out when you said taking writing seriously, like really leaning in and getting serious about doing that. My mind went to the more serious I get about writing, the more type A I get. And it gets very, it's not as... 34:20 It's not as brain dump, heart dump, you know, whatever. It becomes... 34:29 too structured, it becomes too, like back to that assignment kind of feel where, so it was interesting that that triggered me going, oh, I feel like if I got serious about it, it might be worse for me. uh Because I don't, and then also I didn't have this drive to be this or that related to writing. It was really just a bloodletting, if you will, like kind of a, I would write when everything started to bubble up. 34:57 and then I would write something. Yes, which is a great time to write too. That's cathartic. that's one of the ways in which writing is healing. yeah, I think, but you were listening to yourself though, Matt, and I think that you were listening to your own instinct, your instinct in that moment to write and let some of that steam out through the words. For sure. And you know what else I've noticed too is, I mean, that's such a power of story for you of how getting everything out in that way in a 35:27 serious way kind of helped you heal parts of you, maybe not all the way and maybe you needed other things to kind of weave in, but there's so much power in that story. For me, what happened is when I got to, after I found therapy, like in my 30s and trying to figure that out, triggered by a work issue, but then we got into the mom stuff. Once I figured that all out, I started just sharing. 35:57 on social media the most vulnerable things that I've written. And I did it for two reasons. One, growing up it was always like, can't share certain things with people because that's our business or that shows weakness or whatever it may be. And then secondly, is I knew that I wasn't the only one feeling that way. And so I would just share it whether it made me look good, bad or indifferent. 36:26 And I would hear from people behind the scenes saying, hey, I can't share this out loud, but I connected with this so much and here's kind of my journey. And so I just found how much power there was, one, to get it out, but then to share it with people and not care what other people thinks, but then also hear that it affected other people. Did you share your stuff? Were you making that public for people or was this more of an internal kind of writing healing journey for you? It's been, it's been 36:55 Both. I share it a lot now. Certainly when I'm writing a poem, I'm not thinking about an audience in that way. It is me and whatever the spirit is bubbling up, whatever my body is telling me because so much language comes through, so much language and poetry really is the body's knowing, the body's awareness. uh 37:23 And I think that also brings the soul along as well. I think they're extremely connected. But I'm finding that in a lot of ways, the more that I'm kind of sharing the depth of this story with other people, that people are sharing more of their story with me around their version of voice, which I think is really, really interesting. So. 37:48 The voice that spoke to me in the mirror and kind of in my head at the same time I call voice with a capital V and that's part of what I trace. So the memoir, I mean the book is actually tracing my healing journey over the decades. And so like the first half is my... 38:09 telling the story of how I came to understand writing as Healer for me and how I came to commit to it and kind of the stages and the phases of that, like going to graduate school and studying poetry writing and then writing more and more about my experience of living with this loss. I did get counseling along the way and how that shifted things for me as well. I was able to get past the trauma of 38:36 of witnessing David's death and then start regaining memories that I shared with him while he was alive. And then I felt the need to write down as many stories I could remember about David because I wanted to recreate him for myself. so that's kind of the... And then I became curious, Matt, about, why is a poem healing? Like why, as I'm writing this poem, do I feel new expansiveness in myself? I feel... 39:06 my body relaxing, I feel my spirit expanding. What is it about the poem that's so healing? What is it about this poem? So I started analyzing that, becoming curious. And then like the second part of the book is more about now that I understand writing is healing for myself and I now have a practice of writing as healing for me that's been sustained for several decades at that point. And yes, there's some collections of poems that evolved out of that. 39:33 But now it's using this to help other people heal. And then it's watching how voice shows up, all the different times that voice, because there are a few other times in my life where voice speaks directly to me, gives me a very clear message. But otherwise, I believe voice is showing up with every poem and is part of the creative process. Absolutely joining me in the creative process of writing a poem. 40:04 which is not an academic thing for me at all. It's a creative act that connects me with myself, but with something much bigger that's also flowing through. And it's kind of my access point. It's my access point to that flow of the larger creative, loving, spiritual presence in the universe that I believe in that has showed up in my life throughout my life. Yeah, I love that. It's funny, not funny. 40:30 you said you don't look at it as academic. And I'm like, why do I? And I know why I do. Because when I was eight, when my mom died, it felt like abandonment. And so with the people around me, I could hear them say, we need to make him happy. He needs to be happy. He needs to be OK. I absorbed, oh, I need to be OK. And I need to be perfect. 40:59 or someone else is gonna leave. And so most of my life, everything that I did was to be perfect at it so nobody would leave. I don't think they ever would have left, but my tiny little brain thought, okay, if you're not perfect here, if you don't follow the rules, to a T, someone's gonna leave. And so it was a lot of that fear of abandonment until I was in my 30s. 41:24 when I kind of got a hold of it and it's still there because how can it not be for 30 years? know, like how does that not embed itself in the way you go? And so I think that's why my mind thinks, okay, if I was trying to be quote unquote serious about writing, it would become like an academic process for me, which is so interesting. Another where you have to be perfect. Kind of another place where you have to be perfect. yeah. Exactly. And maybe that's why I like to write in all caps. Maybe that's why now, 41:53 Maybe that's why I don't use, like when I do like a little poetry kind of thing, I don't use like punctuation in places that I should. So maybe that's me rebelling now here in my, as I get older. Are finding some freedom. That sounds like freedom. You're doing it your way. I was thinking what's funny to me, just the concept of the idea that we can write, or you can write a poem. 42:22 and it creates this expansiveness, this space, this new learning about yourself, yet it came out of you. So it's like, was it always in there? And we had it, and we're letting it out in this way. I mean, I guess with you, you say that voice writes with you, but what do you think about that? Does that seem fascinating to you, that it comes out of you, yet it still can help you grow? Oh. 42:48 Absolutely. Yes, yes, that transformative aspect of it that I think is part of any creative process. I love that. uh 43:01 Yeah, where does it come from? I just know that the more I can listen inwardly, the more it's there. It's like permission to let it out? I think it's, for me, I think it's more permission to receive it. And by receive, I both, I think it's tapping into both my own memories. 43:30 and both what my body knows, what my unconscious mind knows, that my conscious mind might not know yet. So I think it's both allowing the conscious mind to speak more to the conscious mind. So for my mindful mind to receive what my paying attention mind beneath the surface has been gathering up for me. So it's kind of a reservoir. I think there is a reservoir inside of us. Yes, I do. oh 43:57 But I also do feel like there is this just larger creative presence that is generally in the atmosphere and in the world. I mean, some people might call it their muse. I don't know, that's fine. Call it a muse if that's helpful. That language has just never particularly worked for me. But I do feel like there are ideas that come through poems that I'm receiving that maybe some other... 44:23 intelligence has imagined that I'm available and it's offering it up. It's mysterious. So there is definitely this wonderful mysterious aspect to it. And then I also believe, Matt, that the more that I read other people's poetry, I'm receiving their mysteriousness as well and their relationship to the creative source. So there are... 44:49 I think there are energies and ideas from other people's poems that are probably entering into my own reservoir and coming out its own way that's more Cyra's way than their way. So I'm adding to it. I feel like I'm adding to it all the time by paying attention, by reading other poems, by feeling, and by being intentionally open to the larger creative force and paying and noticing beauty, like really noticing. 45:15 the natural beauty of the world and allowing that to inform me at all times. Well, as best I can, you know, as best I can, because, you know, there times when I'm just not very aware. Would you say that, or maybe I'm just visioning this, is the voice like a guide for you, like a guide through your life starting at 16 and carrying you through? 45:41 I think that's, I like that as a metaphor to think of it as, to think of the presence as a guide. uh You don't have to, Mike. I'm just curious. sure. That's not... 45:57 It seems like you mentioned that he or the not he the voice shows up at certain other parts in your life to kind of like So I was curious right. I it's not guide is not the word that I've naturally come to I I as a metaphor that you're speaking and I could imagine if it's helpful to someone else to Matt to understand my experience of voices guide, that's absolutely an 46:25 appropriate metaphor, I guess I would say. I have found it curious that voice, it's not a male voice, it's not a female voice, it's not embodied. Sounds like it's hard to describe too. But it's incredibly real. It's just present. I think it's It's there. And speaking to me in the language that voice understands, I will hear it. 46:55 I will hear, see I don't even like using the pronoun it. Yeah, it's like I will hear the presence of the voice. It's a presence. That voice is presence. It's, it, oh, isn't that interesting? I'm trying so hard to not use it. Voice is presence, which means there's energy, there's, there's, there's texture. 47:24 there's an energy field that's probably more accurate for me than guide in terms of my experience. Yes. And part of me was thinking guide and like that it drops in when maybe needed to kind of make sure that you're seeing, and I used it, sorry, but that you're seeing the path that you needed to follow, the stepping stone, the next stone, whatever that might be. Because I think a lot of people have something similar and maybe not. It's their own. 47:53 Like you can't. Exactly. Yes. Hard to describe. Yes. Before I have you like read one of your poems, I would love to ask you if 2025, Saira, if you could talk to the Saira right after oh you heard voice for the first time and you're walking out into the lawn to do what you know needs to be done. Is there anything you would want to say to her? Oh, wow. 48:25 Huh. 48:33 Ugh. 48:36 The words that come forth are... ah 48:43 In due time, all will be well. In due time. uh 48:58 And love will always be there. Healing will come. 49:09 And I would, I do believe David is at peace now. I hope, you know, I hope so. I believe that. um And perhaps I would add that the pain and the suffering for you speaking to me and your family and David, well, there will be so much meaning. You will find so much meaning, so much meaning. 49:37 in this and this journey of struggle will be gradual, but it will be worthwhile. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's, you know, it's important to think of those versions of us that maybe we had judgments about at some point in our lives or we thought, you know, I mean, in that moment, how could you imagine anything beyond that moment? 50:06 Like you just feel like, how do you do this? And what's interesting is I ask a similar question on every episode. And most of the time our answers are very similar to what you said, maybe not as poetic, but a lot of people respond with like, it's gonna be okay. And none of us in that moment believe it, because it's like, could it be? 50:33 Exactly. so what it tells me of like hearing all these beautiful stories of hard moments, positive moments, all the things is how resilient we are as like just human beings and the things that we can go through, you know, work with, figure out, you know, walk with, whatever that may be. It's like so resilient in this this experience as a human and things we didn't even think we could do. Yes, yes, yes. 51:03 I agree. I find that miraculous. would add to that the importance of support, the importance of people who love us, who will hold space with us, who will listen, who will not judge, who will walk with Your tribe. Your tribe, yes, yes. And I can't imagine, I can't imagine this journey without creative process. 51:29 whatever that might be. For me, it's poetry. For someone else, it might be podcasting, painting, photography, dance, music, gardening. But having a creative process, I feel is vital, absolutely vital to dealing with struggle and dealing with grief and dealing with recovery from trauma. Your proof of concept for that. 51:54 Yeah, we do it a layer at a time. I've done it, I believe. Therefore, I believe we do it a layer at a time. We heal a layer at a time, uh but we can with support and creativity and time, practice, practice all of that. Yeah. 52:12 Well, I appreciate your story. Maybe to close us out here, you can introduce us a little to your book by sharing one of your poems and then tell us about your book so people could find it. And we'll obviously have links and stuff like that, but I'll let you do that first. Thank you. Thank you. you know what? I will read a poem in a moment. I do want to talk about the cover because it's an important part of the story. This is my brother David and this is me. So here we are as children and he's probably 52:42 four five, and I'm probably two. And our father took this photograph when we were very small children. And uh if you kind of keep looking, it might become clear that I am leaning my head against David. He is very absorbed. He's doing something. He's very absorbed and doing what he is doing. But he is choosing to hold himself still as his little sister. 53:10 is leaning her head against him. And that bond, that attachment has been an important part of my story too, important part of connecting with him. He has showed up in my dreams a lot and as a healer in my dreams. So the poem that I would like to read reflects on one of these dreams. It's called Listening for Owl. I will simply say that the poems that are part of this book are an essential part of telling this story. 53:40 There are places in the book where the poems, there probably about 40 poems built into the whole book of many chapters. And sometimes the poems are helping to tell the story in the chapter and other times the poems are the focus of the chapter and I'm talking about why I think that poem was so healing. And then there's a section at the end of the book where I invite David to speak directly. And it's an extended monologue where he is 54:10 I'm imagining what he would say in those moments, that threshold time between his mortal wounding but before he dies and what he's reflecting upon. This poem comes, this is uh almost at the very end of the book. It's called Listening for Owl. 54:28 I can't explain what happened or why. Don't know what it signifies or whether it changes anything or not. I only know that I had been missing the great horned owl hunting our neighborhood. It had been months since his rhythmic call had rippled through the dark, pierced my sleep and winged me to the realm 54:57 between flesh and shadow, where reunions between the breathing and the buried take place inside of dreams. I only know that my brother, long dead, filled me with his being. The shoreline of his gaze wove seaweed strands and infinite tides around me. 55:27 His hand lightly brushed my back as if to prove his presence. My skin still quivers at this surprising touch. 55:42 All these years and still we recognize each other. Memory pulses across thresholds in the knowing song of owl vanishing now in this dawn while the space inside me that held my brother's form is still warm. 56:10 That's beautiful. Thank you. How does it make you feel when you read those? Oh, I really love reading this poem because it comes from a fairly recent dream, like perhaps a year ago, and uh David's presence in my dream was so profoundly real and loving, and it makes me feel very, very close to him and loving him and feeling loved from him and— 56:39 grateful for my relationship with him, profoundly grateful for my relationship with him. Yeah, to be a sister. Yeah, no, I love that you've carried him with you through all these years and the ups and the downs and the creative outlets and everything. a beautiful tribute to David. 56:59 Thank you. If people are interested in checking out your book and your other books, what's the best way people can find you, tell you their story, tell you how much your story resonated with them? Sure. Well, the book itself, Words Make A Way Through Fire, you should be able to get from any bookstore. You might be able to order. You might need to order it. You can get it on Amazon. But I really, really encourage people ordering books from their local independent bookstore. Let's support our local independent bookstores. I do have a website. 57:30 CyrusSweetDoMeTrue.com. I just stop and think about it. Yes. On that website, I talk about poetic medicine, writing is healing. I talk about the other books. And there's a way that you can contact me there. My email is there. And you can reach me there. Yes. Yes. 57:52 We'll make all those links easily accessible in the show notes for this episode so people can just click on them and get to where they need to go. I think I'll point them to your website mostly so then maybe they can see the name of your book and then order from their local bookstore instead of sending an Amazon link. Yes, totally, yes, totally support that idea. Yes, yes, yes. Awesome. Well, thank you for coming on this candid conversation journey with me and talking about your life in this way. It's been... 58:20 really meaningful and every conversation that I have, including this one, feels like a little piece of healing that I didn't know I still needed. So thank you for that. Thank you, Matt. Again, thank you for this opportunity and good to be with you and just blessings upon your ongoing healing. And for everyone who is listening, may your healing grow as well. Yes. That's what we hope. We want to build a community of people that 58:47 feel confident in sharing their stories with anyone around them so that they don't feel alone in their circumstances. Because most likely, even though we feel it in the moment, we're not the only ones to feel the way we are feeling. so having that community of people we can talk even the silly things with or what we think are silly things are so important. So find your community, find your tribe. They're going to help you through it. But I'm going to. 59:11 Say thank you again, Cyra, and I will be back next week with a brand new episode, everyone. Thank you for being a part of this journey with me. Thank you. Thank you. 59:31 For more information, please visit www.thelifeshiftpodcast.com