How Allison Carmen Found Freedom in the Power of Maybe

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Today's guest is Allison Carmen. I think that you'll find this a powerful exploration of how we can transform our relationship with uncertainty. Allison is an author, she's a podcaster, business consultant, CFO and general counsel of the Motherhood Center of New York. And her journey is one of resilience, of course, and growth, of course, and discovery, as she shares how a simple yet profound concept that she calls maybe,

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helped her embrace the unknown and find hope in some of life's most challenging moments. Throughout our conversation, Allison really talks about her addiction to certainty and how it fueled anxiety and fear throughout her childhood and her teenage years. And then she takes us through this pivotal life experience, a couple of them, from career shifts to deeply personal heartbreak and how she used the practice of maybe to rebuild her life and cultivate resilience.

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This episode is a reminder that life's possibilities really truly lie in the unknown. So if you've ever felt stuck, overwhelmed, or afraid of what's next, because who hasn't? Then this conversation will hopefully leave you with a fresh perspective and practical tools to embrace uncertainty. So without further ado, here's my conversation with Allison Carmen. But for me, when I heard that story, I actually felt a...

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pop in my chest because it occurred to me my whole life. I'm worrying that the horse is going to run away. I'm going to fail the test. I'm not going to get the job. It never occurred to me that five mayors could come back, that something good could happen. There was this flow that life kept moving. And uncertainty is really not a scary place because if you want your life to change, it has to happen in the unknown. And so all of a sudden, my entire mind shifted. I realized that uncertainty is my best friend.

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because that's where everything's gonna change. That's where life is gonna have the miracle. That's where life's gonna have the dream. And in that moment, my entire life changed. I'm Maciel Huli, and this is The Life Shift, candid conversations about the pivotal moments that have changed lives forever.

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Hello, my friends. Welcome to the LifeShift Podcast. I am here with Allison. Hello, Allison. Hello, Matt. Very nice to be here. Well, thank you for wanting to be a part of the LifeShift Podcast. This has been a journey that I never really anticipated for myself, even after my own personal LifeShift moment and lacking the grief or the ability to grieve, I guess, for decades. I never expected that I would be able to talk to so many

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strangers essentially about their deeply personal moments in their lives and feel on the back end so fulfilled and healed from other people's stories and the way they share it. So it's really just been quite a journey and I'm just honored that you want to be a part of it. It's so wonderful to be here and it's so fascinating that we have these before and after moments. You know, people don't realize that. I always think about that all the time, like the minute before your life changed.

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And there's this moment in time and then how you show up for the rest is what really matters. It's not, you they always say it's not what happens, but how you show up, but it's kind of both, isn't it? It's the event and then what we do with that event and how we experience it creates the meaning of our lives. So it's really wonderful to share that with you in this moment. Yeah, I agree. And I also think that there's like conditions that are kind of placed on that in my own experience in which

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When I was eight, I didn't have any tool on how to move forward, right? But like in my 30s, when my grandmother got really sick and eventually passed away, I knew exactly what I needed to do in my before and after moments after she was gone and how that would change me and move forward with it. And so I always say, if we're lucky enough to be able to have had...

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the moments to reflect upon and how we can move forward and put the tools in our toolbox. At that point, our life becomes so much richer because we know how to address whatever situation is coming up. We know how to be a full human in those moments, in which maybe when I was eight, I was not a full human because I really absorbed what the people around me needed from me, which was to see that I was perfect and happy. Yeah, no, I totally understand that. But I also find I never have quite enough tools.

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Like one experience gives me tools for the toolbox. And then the next experience, I'm wiser, but life has something more to teach me. So I don't know if it'll ever be filled. So I find that, yeah, because you think, oh, now I'm in that place where I understand what life's about. And then you realize there's always more, there's always more expansion. There's always more learning. There's always more grieving. There's always more joy. It seems to be never ending. I totally agree.

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Before we get into your story, what you just said like resonates with me so hard right now because, you know, having my mom die totally screwed up the grieving journey that I had, but I learned a lot from that. So that when my grandmother died, I knew kind of how I needed to process the grief. And then last year I lost a deer puppy, like the first time and he was 14 and a half, but he was my shadow for 14 and a half years. And that I didn't have the tools for like I

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And I went into it because I knew it was coming and I was like, I got this. Like I am a pro at grieving now. Like I can do this. And this one threw me for a loop. So I didn't have the right tools for this. I thought I did. But you probably had some. You probably had some. Right. You had some tools. Right. And then life had something more to teach you. And that's what you said about being curious and about being open and wanting to always take the journey. Then you're just going to it's just another moment in time.

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So I totally appreciate what you just said. Well, before we get into your story, maybe you can tell us who Allison is in 2025. Like, how do you identify in the world these days? Well, my favorite role is is being a mother, I have to say. But I am a spiritual teacher. I am an author. I'm a podcaster. I'm also the CFO, general counsel and chief business operator of a woman's day hospital in New York City.

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And I just balance it all. And every day I wake up and I just hope that I'll be able to help and serve some way. So you're not busy at all is what you're saying. Yeah, I just got up. I just woke up for the interview. Great. Well, no, mean, all of that sounds really fulfilling. Was your life always this fulfilling? Yeah, I think it's had different phases, but this is definitely one of my most

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fulfilling phases of my life when it comes to my work. Bringing up my children, I still had a business, but that was my main focus. And now I think my children, they're both out of the house. And of course, they're still a very large part of my life, but most of my days are spent serving however I'm serving the outside world. Wow. That's, mean, that's great for you. I hope you have a great, fantastic way to recharge your battery because I know how that...

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can be for some individuals really draining taking on a lot of that and helping others in the way that you're doing. So I'm sure you have a process of some sort. I could show you the list of my acupuncture, my energy healer, my daily diet. that's probably tools that you learned along the way to put in that toolbox. Absolutely. When you're sensitive, you have to because you want to show the same kind of, I always say that

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people who live in the light and on the sensitive side need the same kind of strength and fearlessness that the other energies contain. And so that's very important to me because I like the feeling of not being consumed by fear and being strong and powerful. And when you have the light within you as well, it's a really powerful combination, but you're right. You need to recharge all the time, constant recharging. Yeah. When I started this show, was trying to record like three, four, five episodes a week. And I was like,

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that's not healthy for me, just because these stories can be really heavy and they can take on a lot and I naturally absorb some of that in the conversation. And so I had to teach myself how I could better take care of myself so that I could show up for these conversations in the way that I want to. So I understand that. And sometimes you had to learn it the hard way, but I love that.

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To get to, I know you have multiple life shift moments that we might touch on today, but I'd love for you to kind of paint the picture of your life leading up to whichever one you want to start with and give us as much context as you think we need to kind of understand that before version of Alison. Well, I think the best before version to start with is I always say that I was addicted to certainty. If I didn't know what was going to happen next, I projected things were going to be bad or they weren't going to work out.

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And that's how I spent most of my childhood. Always worrying about the test, always worrying about who liked me, always worrying about what was going to happen next. And when you start to live that kind of life, you're just on the wheel. And every, even if one thing good settles, you're always thinking about, what's the next thing that's going to happen? So you're in a constant state of stress and anxiety. So in order to manage that, I started to write stories about what needed to happen for me to be okay.

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So my biggest story started when I was 14 years old. I was like, okay, I'm gonna get a hold of my life. I am gonna become a lawyer. I'm gonna make a lot of money. I'm gonna marry this great guy and everything's gonna be okay because I'm gonna have everything I need. So what would happen is that the stress and anxiety was always there, but I had this story that one day I would arrive. And sure enough, I went to law school, married the guy who I thought was great at the time.

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And I got the great job. And I remember walking to work. Like I was in the Mary Talamor show, you know, you know, she's going to make it after all, you know, and I had no hat, but because it was August, but it, but, but I really believing that this was the moment. And sure enough, my second day of work at the large law firm, they came in, the economy had dropped and they let us know they were firing half the first years. And I was the first year at the time. And I remember.

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That moment was just like, sometimes you have that moment and I just realized in that moment that I was never going to have certainty. So here I was, I was addicted to certainty. I was writing stories of things that needed to happen. And this big story just came crashing down because I realized that I might not keep this job. And that was, I might not have that money. And I ended up not getting fired that day, but a lot of my colleagues did, but it didn't matter. I just spun out stress, anxiety.

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obsession. And as time went on, like I started to get physically ill, my immune system started to become suppressed, I had sleepless nights. And then I thought, okay, well, maybe I could change my life on the outside. There was something else that I could possibly do. So I left the firm, I did this, I did that. And my life really was, it looked okay on the outside, but I was really falling apart on the inside. Like we talked about, I had no tools.

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for this addiction, this need that if I didn't know what was gonna happen, it was bad, it was gonna be good, things could not get better. So I was searching meditation, yoga, veganism, and one day I went to my Qigong teacher and he told me this Taoist story and I'm sure maybe you've heard it before, some of your listeners might've heard it, but it goes like this. There's a farmer and he has a horse and his horse runs away. And his neighbor comes by and says to the farmer, you have the worst luck. And the farmer says, maybe.

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But the next day the horse comes back with five mares and the neighbor comes by to the farmer and says, you have the best luck. And the farmer says, maybe. But the next day, the farmer's son is on the horse. He falls off and breaks his leg. And the neighbor comes by and says to the farmer, you have the worst luck. And the farmer says, maybe. But the next day, the army comes to take the son to war, but they can't take him because his leg is broken. And the neighbor comes by to the farmer and says, you have the best luck. And the farmer says, maybe.

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And in the Taoist tradition, this story means things are neither good or bad. But for me, when I heard that story, I actually felt a pop in my chest because it occurred to me my whole life. I'm worrying that the horse is going to run away, going to fail the test. I'm not going to get the job. It never occurred to me that five mayors could come back, that something good could happen. There was this flow that life kept moving. And uncertainty is really not a scary place because if you want your life to change, it has to happen in the unknown.

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And so all of a sudden, my entire mind shifted. I realized that uncertainty is my best friend because that's where everything's going to change. That's where life is going to have the miracle. That's where life's going to have the dream. And in that moment, my entire life changed. And at first, I just used it for little stress and worries like, oh, I have no clients. I'm never going to clients again. I would literally just say, maybe that thought's not true. And it would open me up.

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But as time went on, the more I aligned with uncertainty, the more present I was. Because if you're not worrying about the future, if you look at the future and you know that there's infinite possibilities and the dreams you have, even if you don't know exactly what's going to happen next, you have hope, you come back to the moment in a softer way. And then you look at the past and you realize that regret is a reverse maybe. All you know is here you are in this moment with the hope of possibility that maybe you could still have the life that you want.

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So all of a sudden it created presence, it created hope, it created possibility, and my whole mindset changed. So whatever I face in life now, I know life has maybe. And it is just a gorgeous practice, and it took me from being addicted to certainty to loving uncertainty. And so I ride with a different perspective since that time. And to raise kids and believe in maybe,

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to have unfortunate things happen in the world to believe in maybe, you always know that if you have breath, you have hope, you have hope, have maybe. Yeah, mean, changing your mindset on things like that is probably quite profound. Was it as sudden as you described? Like, did you feel like an immediate weight kind of disappear from some of your life? That moment, I actually felt like a physical pop.

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But when I got home, it started very light. It literally just started with little things. Like you have a little fear, like, oh, that client's going to leave me. Oh, that person is not going to call. I'm not going to get that job. Little things. And then you start to play with this idea of maybe you're not rigid on that one thing happening. You realize that one thing doesn't have to happen. There are many things that could happen. And I just started to hold things more loosely. So it started as just a stress practice.

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And then it became more of a presence practice. And then it became more of you end up taking more risks and then your perspective changed and you have so much more hope. And then you believe in the potential of the unknown and then you believe in the potential of your life. So it just, it kept growing. Yeah. And it was a secret. This was my little secret. And then in 2008, the economy crashed. And at that time I'd left the law and I was doing more business coaching with a little bit of law stuff on the side.

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And my clients were freaking out because in 2008, the money dried up. You couldn't get a loan. Nobody could do business the way that they were supposed to. So I would go into a client meeting. I'd look at their P and L. I'd look at their marketing plan and they just couldn't think of something new. And I sat there one moment at a pure frustration because I'm seeing there, no matter what I said, my clients like, no, no, no. And, and you're watching like people like about to close their shops, close their stores.

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And I just told them the story of the farmer. And that's what shifted, started to shift everybody's mindset because everybody wanted something. So if you can give people hope in the unknown, they're going to ride it differently. They're going to take more chances. They might keep their business open and be patient. They might change their business, but they know they're not doomed. That's the thing. We're all worried. We're not okay. And the minute you realize that you are,

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and that the outside world, you're not doomed, it's not gloom, there's always, because we can't see it, we think we know. And the point is we don't know, but not knowing is the gold. Not knowing is the beauty. And so I don't have one client that went out of business in 2008, but none of them had the same business a year later. It was all different shifts. But sometimes we need courage. We need something to hold. And we look at uncertainty and we say, how do we hold this?

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And so maybe was the kind of road to that. But if it wasn't for 2008, I don't think I would have shared it. And since then, I've written three books, I have maybe cards, I've done so much with it, but it only happened because somebody in front of me needed it just as much as I did. Yeah. Do you ever look back at the younger version of you and curious as to why you were so addicted to certainty? there things in your life that were

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kind of forcing you to want to know the answer so that you could feel more calm, because you knew the outcome was going to be X, Y, or Z? Well, I kind of think it's a different eight-year-old story, but I had parents that were warriors. And they would say the most outrageous things. They were just like venters. They would whatever worry, whatever fear they had. And I was eight. And I didn't know. So you took that on.

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whatever they would say, you know, the government's gonna fall, you know, there would be a bombing somewhere, they would talk about their money, they would say we'd have to move. And I was sensitive. So I was this really sensitive child who didn't think I could ask questions about that. So I started to take on this doom and gloom behavior because my parents were warriors. And so they never gave me a solution. I'm sure they solution with each other.

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but I only heard the end, the sky is falling, the sky is falling. And I'm literal, I'm sensitive. So I took that on, I took that persona on. I don't know what my natural tendency would have been, but that's how I interpreted the experience I had growing up. And I think that's where it all came from. But I think a lot of us are addicted to certainty in different ways. Like sometimes I'll meet somebody and they're really good friendships, but they have certainty issues when it comes to money. Sometimes there are people who

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are great with money, but they they're always worried about their job. And maybe it does come down to your experiences in childhood. But what we don't realize is that every decision that we make in life has to do with our relationship with uncertainty. Unless you're totally great with the unknown, at some point, some place in our lives, we're often picking certainty over the truth of our life. What we think is certain. Yeah. Do you align people that have

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perfectionist tendencies with people that are addicted to certainty? Is there a correlation there? There is definitely a correlation because we want, we're looking for perfection because we think if we get perfection, we know we're going to be okay. That was, mean, that was me. Yeah. So you think is if this one thing happens, if I can achieve this one thing, then everything's going to be okay. So yes, there are many different reasons why people become addicted, but a perfectionist, absolutely. Because really they don't feel safe. Yeah.

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Mine was really I became a perfectionist because I thought if I wasn't perfect, my dad was also going to leave because my mom had left by dying at his eight year old. It's leaving, right? It's abandonment. And so I absorbed like that. People wanted to see me happy. So that meant I had to make them happy, which meant I had to get good grades and I had to be perfect and not get in trouble and whatever it was. And that just becomes a snowball in the opposite way, which I'm sure you can relate to in your

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addiction to certainty as well. And then at some point, I was just like, I don't have my he's not gonna leave if I get like a B, you know, like, but it's really hard to pull yourself out of that. And so I listening to your story, it sounds like and I, didn't obviously give the whole part of it. But were you seeking your own solutions, like your own tools, and you were doing that kind of navigating that secret on your own? Or were you seeking outside sources? Because it sounded like maybe you did both.

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along your journey to help you? At first, I didn't know. At first, I just wrote the big story that life was going to save me. The outside world is going to save me. A lot of us believe that if I want to get that job, life's going to be great when my child gets into that college. And then the next day, something else happens. So at first, I played the game that the outside world is going to give me certainty. And again, that's a scary thing, because if you pick certainty over your true life path, because that's going to be a problem and there is no certainty.

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And then when I realized there was no certainty in life, which is almost embarrassing in a way that it took me to the age of like 25, 26 to realize that. But yeah, then I started veganism meditation. Yes, I guess so. Right. A lot more suffering till 25. But yeah, no, veganism, energy healing, acupuncture, you meditate, you name it. I was sitting on magnets and not that all these things are bad, but no matter what I did when something unexpected happened.

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I spun out because the root was my fear of the unknown. You could meditate all you want, but when life surprises you, if you don't have the tools to realize there's an ebb and flow to life that we can't resist, that there's presence, that there's hope in the future, when we don't know those things, life will take us down every time, no matter how you're eating, no matter how you're practicing life. Yeah. And I could imagine, I mean, if I'm pulling from my own experience, like,

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maybe I dabbled in getting therapy at some point in my journey, but it wasn't until I was truly like aligned with the idea of it actually working for me, did it actually work. So I'm thinking of like, you trying these things and then your addiction to certainty is like, I need to do this right so that it works so that it can fulfill whatever I'm looking for. So it could save me everything the point was to be saved again, because ultimately,

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My parents didn't make me feel safe. They didn't make me feel like things were okay. And that's why we want certainty because we want to feel I'm okay. And for me, it wasn't until I found maybe that I started to experience that. But, you know, my second part of my story is that so I'm walking around thinking that I got this thing under control. I'm living in maybe, I love uncertainty, I'm pursuing my dreams and bringing up my kids.

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I think I'm in this wonderful, beautiful marriage. I send my kids off to their wonderful programs and I was sitting, eating lunch. When we talk about the before and after, this is where I related to you so deeply that I'm eating my lunch and my ex-husband walks in, we're married at the time, and he sits down and he turns to me and he says, I think we need to separate. want to have sexual relations with other women.

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and

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All of a sudden I went from my before to my after thinking I had, I was living in maybe, but I wasn't truly living in maybe because what I realized is that marriage to me was certainty. That was like my family member. That was like my brother, my father, my, you know, my husband. And he just kept going about all the reasons why he, and I thought I did a minute before I thought I was in a happy marriage and he was gone within six weeks. I remember like just

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falling apart. I remember I fell to the floor and I just, couldn't think a thing. But in that moment, I realized that I thought that was forever. And I'm not saying, look, a lot of us believe that way, but I was not prepared. I didn't know. And I could not get a hold of myself for two or three days. And then I wasn't sleeping and I was hyperventilating, I was crying. And I actually took my book, The Gift of Maybe, into the bathroom.

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It's a story. I'm lying on the floor. I'm crying. I start to read my book and I'm on page six. And on page six, I had listed all my fears and worries before I found Maybe. And one of them was, would my husband always love me? And I don't even remember writing it. I don't know if an editor put it in. I cannot tell you. I can't point to a specific moment.

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But in that moment, I obviously wrote to myself because in that moment, I realized I had maybe. It was funny, it was here, it wasn't in my heart because I was, but just that little thought that I could exist possibly without this marriage, that life could change. And at that point I thought maybe he would change his mind. So my maybes were maybe he'll change his mind, maybe I could live through this. But it's funny that that tool I had,

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It wasn't the only tool I needed to heal because there's a lot more than maybe there was awareness, was acceptance, there was grieving, there was presence. There was, I could talk for a million days on all the things I needed to do, but that moment saved my life. And it's funny that I had put it in a book that just the thought that even in my worst moment that life could change and there was a, the light was so tiny, but you give somebody a little bit of hope.

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That's all they need. So that was my second time. And that was out of all the moments for some reason, even though I remember before, maybe after maybe there's something about that second moment that feels more of before and after because it was a life I had for 30 years. And then a minute later, it was not my life anymore. Do you see that conversation triggering more or the or seeing the line in the book page six?

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Do you see which one do you feel really like pushed you to become? Him telling me he was ending the marriage was the before and after. I felt like I was falling through a floor. Remembering the maybe was that glimmer of light that although it was painful and it was difficult, but I had that light on day three. Like I said, it was very tiny.

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but maybe it's so miraculous because it reminds you that you don't know. And because you don't know doesn't mean life can't change. There was something that grew in me more and more and more, but it was that moment that's, the moment he told me felt like it destroyed me and the moment I was on the floor felt like it saved me in a way. Even though was a long journey back, it's been six years and I have a beautiful life today, that was the moment that.

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I kind of took a little step and I had maybe so for all I know that that's what it was for. I thought it was for my stress and worry, but maybe it was for me to continue and find a beautiful life to live again. Was there, I mean, and this is also kind of, I don't have a similar story, but I do in a sense of like where I thought I was good. And then I realized I wasn't. And then I realized there was like a little piece of what I had that was good was like

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was the impetus to get back to good, I guess. did I also, I had these moments of like, was I tricking myself the whole time? Like, should I grieve this moment? How do I approach how I reacted? And maybe to your point of like looking back and not regretting in ways is your answer to this. But did you have those moments of you were like, what spiral was I in before where I thought everything was gonna be okay because I was in this maybe.

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phase but didn't but ignored this little piece right here. You know, I think everything's the way it's supposed to be because it is, you know, and so I yeah, well, for me, that well, and I totally respect that. And, know, sometimes I think because I have my two children, that there was no other way for me to have them, that it cuts it off immediately, because I'm like, everything had to be this way for

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for me to have them. But I also think to myself, everything that happened before in my life had to happen for me to be in this moment. know, regret's a funny thing because it tells a perfect story. If you think about it, like your life has twists and turns. All these things you did in your life, they had this and then this happened, I had to do this. But the story of regret's perfect. If I would have married that person, if I would have made that decision, but we forget.

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that those have twists and turns too. That though there was not gonna be a perfect line and we really, the story regrets a false story because it makes us feel like the other choice would have been better. But you have no idea, you could have walked across the street at the wrong time. You could have met the wrong person. There were so many things that happen with one choice that I always say that I don't know what my life would have been like with one different choice. So all I know is here I am. And that could be any day.

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at any day, any moment. So whatever you did in your life brought you to this moment. And here you are with the hope and possibility that you could have the life you want. And I believe that with all my heart. And it did help me heal because I'm like, here I am. I do sometimes look around and I'm like, what did I do? But between my daughters, which is an easy one for me because I wouldn't have them, but also perhaps this is my path.

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and everything the way it's supposed to be because it is. And I'm also, don't, know, a lot of people say the best is always happening. I've worked with a lot of people that I couldn't say that. I know people that have lost a lot of things in their life, but I can say is either the best is always happening or we need to make the best of it. Either way, here we are. That's how I look at life. You don't know where anything else would have brought you. You don't.

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We hurt ourselves when we think that way. Because for all you know, this is where you're supposed to be and you still have a life full of potential. Yeah, I think I have mixed feelings on that. And I think it's just from having such a trauma happen as a kid. Because I grew up, lot of people didn't have the right words, I guess, is probably that we're like, she's in a better place or life is happening in the way it's supposed to. growing up, you're like,

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So she was supposed to die in a tragic motorcycle accident so that my life could be good? I don't know. So I understand it conceptually, right? But growing up, I had such a conflicted feeling on that. And knowing full well that every decision I make is bringing me to this point, I also know that had my mom not died in that way, I wouldn't be this version of me. I wouldn't...

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you know, probably be living here. wouldn't, you know, I wouldn't have the friends I have. wouldn't have the life that I had have had that not happened. So it's a really weird space for me to think back about those because would I change it on the surface? Of course I would want to have her in my life. The same time being in my forties now, would I change it? You know, like it's such a weird space to be. Yeah. I think that is such an okay.

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K place to be because when I again, we can't compare stories, but I can only say that a lot of people, look at me today and they're like, Alison, you are thriving. You're so much better without him. And when people say that to me, it was such a painful event. I don't look at it as a happy event. It was so painful. It was so awful. I just made that's why I don't say the best is always happening. I say I made the best of it.

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And if I didn't work so hard and I didn't do all the things I've done and all these things, it wouldn't be this way. I understand, they're totally different stories, but I understand that I think sometimes people need to say certain things, but we don't need to judge the past as good or bad or right or wrong. All we know is that this is what life gave us and this is what we did with it. And that's how I look with it. I don't look at it.

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as celebratory or not celebratory, I just say, I can't resist what is. And so how can I make the most of this moment and the days that I have left? But I find that people love to do that because everybody always wants the happy story. I think life is more complex than that, but I do think that the presence always has a gorgeous, beautiful aspect to it. And life always has miracles and potentials, but we don't have to.

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you know, wrap it up with a bow and wrapping paper for it to be meaningful. So I totally respect and understand deeply, you know, what you're saying. And likewise, I totally understand and I think I can hold both. I think I can feel both as well. I think that I know that I am in charge of the decisions that I make in most instances unless life smacks me in the face in a moment like that. Right.

34:41

But I also, after that moment, whatever that might be, I have the choice to determine the direction that I want to go in with it, to your whole point of like, you can make the best of it. You also can make a shitstorm out of it. and that, whether we like to believe it or not, is also a choice that we make. I mean, I did that in my teen years when I was depressed, when I was not knowing how to grieve. And I was like, this depression is like,

35:10

good for me. And so I would lean into it. And it wasn't good for me. But I knew I was making these poor choices because it was just easier. It was easier to take that dark road than it was to get better or feel better or feel happy. I don't know what it was, but it was just much easier to be a miserable teenager. And it's actually a valid choice. mean, I know it's hard to say that, but each choice is valid for the reason and for all you know.

35:39

that maybe that was the experience you needed to have to be on your path. So I just try to be soft with it because we go against ourselves so quickly. So I try to be soft with things within and I don't always try to, you sometimes we're like, why, why, why, why? And sometimes I just, it is, and I try to just be kind for the path that I've been on. Yeah. think that's a practice. A hundred percent.

36:06

I do because when he left, he blamed me. And so I was like, oh, oh, and then it took a long time to understand that it wasn't my fault. I think that marriages are complicated. And I could say, oh, I was devoted and I was caring and I was loving, but I'm sure that he would have things to say too. But deciding to leave a marriage is a different thing than having a marital problem.

36:33

I just think everything is complex and I just try to be soft about the decisions that I made and I try not to go against myself. try not, I, you know, I often say I try not to diminish myself, but yes, it's a practice. But again, here we are with this potential and this life in front of us. So again, that also, you know, the hope also softens the past as well. your children, do they model the things that you do? Or are they like the old version of you or?

37:02

Because you absorbed, admittedly so, what your parents kind of put out into the universe as a child, because you were living in a maybe is possible kind of state, your children kind of follow suit? Yes, they are, they're maybe-ous. They are out there in the world and they are, you know, they could get stressed, they could get worried, but they have a lot of tools, even beyond the maybe, you they both.

37:30

have meditation practices, they're both Reiki masters, they both have a lot of different practices, but at the end of the day, maybe is the one I think that they use the most because they're looking at the world and they're saying, is my boss mad at me? Will I get, you know, one of my daughters is waiting to see if she gets into grad school. So with maybe they realize that they don't know what's gonna happen. And even if that one thing doesn't happen, there's so many other possibilities. So I think they're not that tight about

38:00

about life and they have a sense of hope usually. But yeah, I mean, they have their struggles, but yes, they have embraced. They're human, but they have definitely embraced these things. Yeah, and they're not addicted to certainty, is not as a no. I think we're all maybe on some level. Maybe you have to live on a mountain somewhere. I always say beware of the person that wrote the book. But your book helped you in multiple ways. I have to tell you.

38:29

Yeah, it is. I laugh sometimes because you think, you know, I'm writing this book for all these people to read it. And I know a lot of people have been helped, but I don't know what that moment would have been if I didn't have the maybe practice and that moment in the bathroom. So it always life always blows my mind. It reminds me of I mean, if we're we're shrink it down to this podcast, it reminds me of people telling their stories. And so often I have people that are not

38:59

making podcast rounds, maybe this is our first time like sharing their story publicly, where the act of telling their story is this healing journey. And it's kind of in the same way of like, you put a book out there, you think it's there to help other people. But a lot of the times that putting that book together is something that's helping us make sense of the things we do, the things the way we think, however it comes. you know, I'll talk to people after our recording or they listen to their

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themselves tell their story and they're forever changed by that experience. So it reminds me so much of you writing your book, but then finding your book as the salve, if you will, for that moment. moment. I think about that. I wonder, I know I would have gotten to maybe eventually, but it was the unthinkable.

39:52

It was him leaving, us not being together was the unthinkable. So obviously there was a certainty piece in me and the book just, I mean, day three, I couldn't eat, I couldn't sleep and there I was. So yes, I feel so fortunate that that book was there at that moment. And I feel very blessed in my life on a whole. I never would believe if you would have told me that day, the before and after, that I can have the life that I have today. I wouldn't have believed you.

40:20

And that's the power of maybe and knowing that the uncertainty is your best friend. Because what you do is it's kind of like, you don't always need to move on to move forward. And, and so I think that's what was happening to me is that because I life had maybe I was moving forward, even though I was grieving and I was dealing with a lot of stuff. So it's, it's a very powerful practice. But like I said, there were other things I needed to learn.

40:50

There was a level of an acceptance that I needed to learn, a non-resistance, a level of gratitude that was different than I had before, a level of presence, and then embracing uncertainty on even a bigger level. I didn't know how I was going to afford my life. I didn't know anything before I was using maybe for stress and worry, like, will I get this client? Da-da-da. And all of a sudden, you're using it for the existence of your whole being. And it was just as powerful.

41:20

Is your personality different from before times when you were stressed about certainty and now and the in between? you feel like you're you emote differently to the world? Before, maybe I was. A very nervous person, very anxiety ridden after maybe I dealt with my life well.

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but I would have moments and maybe was a tool. Now, at this point in my life, post, you know, my husband leaving, maybe it's my life perspective. I thought it was my perspective before, but it was a tool. Now I have this different nature. Yeah, I have a different nature. I don't have a lot of fear. I automatically go to the unknown and its potential.

42:19

And I don't get weighed down as much. And also I don't resist life. That's another thing too, but that didn't come from the maybe that came from the experience of truly knowing that what is before us is before us. And the quicker you don't have to agree with it, but the quicker you make peace with that notion and you accept it, you are one with life. And when you are one with life, you experience everything the moment's giving you. And sometimes, you know, even through difficult times, the moment is giving us something

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gorgeous and powerful and beautiful. And sometimes we miss it because we're projecting into the future. Sometimes we miss it because we're in the middle of a problem. So I feel that the ability to be more present, I experienced life so much deeper. And so there are all these new layers. And I think with those layers, my relationship with uncertainty is even vaster. Yeah. So how do you operate in a situation in which

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there's a big decision to be made. Like how do you approach that? Because with endless possibilities, someone like me is like, which one do I choose? Because there are endless possibilities. How do you approach something that's maybe a bigger decision? Usually for me, there's something, I always think of like something unexpected. If there's like just something happening, I go always with my heart. Like I just have like this knowing things feel like, I don't wanna say for me or against me, but

43:49

I have this feeling of what's for me, what resonates. What happens more to me is I'll have a situation I didn't expect. Like you get disappointing news, you think someone's gonna publish your book, you think that you're working on a project that's gonna work out, or someone you love could have a health issue. The first thing for me is when I have that experience, the natural thing is to resist it, because it's something we didn't want.

44:17

So for me, the first thing I actually do is I sit with it and I go to a space of non-resistance. Because if I resist it, then I'm not gonna know what to do next. So if there's a problem, I get to a point that it's not that I like it, but I don't go against it. We don't realize it, but life's always happening and we're always sometimes against what is. And so I don't do that. And again, it's not that I don't try to change things, but I put my energy in the right place.

44:47

So no resistance, acceptance. And when I get to that place, then I could start playing with uncertainty. Then I can start playing with maybe. for me, for, you know, that's probably, mean, I do teach people ways to make decisions, but for me personally, I just, I can't explain. I just get a feeling of what the right answer, yeah. What the right decision would be. And then I hold it with my resources. I hold it with my gratitude and I just go with it. And it's funny.

45:17

because life has twists and turns. So you could be in a situation and be like, wow, I thought this was the right decision. But usually it always leads somewhere. Life is smarter than we are. I always say that. And I make it and then I just roll with it and I see where life takes me. And even now, lately I've been writing more articles about women's healthcare. And I'm looking at myself, like, what's happening? You wanted to be this spiritual teacher and you have this podcast.

45:44

And yet there's so much going on in the world and they're pulling so much healthcare for women. So I'm baffled and yet I wake up in morning and I just wanna write another article. I have two books that I started writing and I'm just pausing and I'm just trying to kind of get a sense. So yes, I guess I don't always know but I know what I find compelling. But right now I don't know where it's going. And I think the healthy part is you're not

46:13

necessarily beating yourself up for a quote unquote wrong decision at any point. You're just like, this is the decision I made. We've moved through and life will bring us to where we need to to go with that particular decision. that? Yeah, absolutely. And also, too, I also think that life comes back around like if it's meant and I miss it, then it'll come around again. And because also, too, I do believe that we participate in the sense that we have dreams, we have goals. There are things we want to do. We just don't know how it's going to happen.

46:42

So if I'm sitting here and I'm thinking, oh, you know, I want to write these two books and all of a sudden this is happening or I have a demand here, it doesn't mean I'm not going to get there. See, for me, I don't give up the dream or the thought or the intention because life's not showing me the answer. That's what happens. A lot of people use the answer. I have the answer. I don't have the answer. This looks good. This doesn't look good. I'm going to stop. I don't play that way. If it's if it's something I want to do, I hold it and I have patience and I wait because I believe.

47:12

in the unknown and I believe a space will open up to create that thing. So you keep holding what the dream is. I always believe what you seek is seeking you in a way. It's just we give up too soon because we want certainty and we forget that. Or safety. Yeah, or safety. That within us is calling us. We just have to know that just because we don't see it doesn't mean it's not true. And a lot of people use that. If they don't see it, they give up.

47:42

And I don't know why this just popped in my mind. Do you think that there is an instance in which it's unsafe to be in the maybe for people? Maybe in circumstances at all? maybe they're down and out. No, I think that a lot of people think that maybe is wishy washy, but we already living in the maybe not. We're already in a place we don't realize that.

48:10

We're already living in a place that my life can't get better. My life can't change. Things are not good. So what the, there are two sides to maybe, right? There's the maybe not, and there's all things that are possible. So the practice of maybe what it does, takes you from life can only be one way. Things can't work out to a place of there's an infinite world of possibilities. So if you're looking at somebody who might be homeless, someone who lost their health insurance.

48:37

You you could live in a world where you'll never have health insurance again, or you could live in a world where you realize, okay, maybe I won't, but maybe I will. It gives you the other side that you're not living in. when you reach, know, despair is an addiction to certainty. People don't realize that when you say it can't get better, that's certainty. There is no certainty. So it doesn't sell, you know, delusion. It doesn't say like tomorrow I'm gonna, I used to say,

49:06

to someone, you know, it's not like you're asking to be an astronaut and go to the moon, but now anyone could go to the moon. So I was to ask you that I can't use that. I can't use that. But I think that you could use it within the world that you're living in. So to me, it's like what maybe does it. I think it gives you hope and hope is for warriors. Despair is the easiest way. Yeah. Like I said, it's easier to stay depressed.

49:29

And absolutely not going to get out of it. Yeah. So to me, like hope is a sign of strength because you're saying I can't see it. I don't know it, but I'm willing to engage. And for me, I'd rather be out there my whole life trying and doing and expanding and maybe not get what I wanted than to sit home to say it could never happen. So I think it sells people an opportunity to change their lives, but no one knows what's going to happen. And we all know good things happen. Bad things happen. It keeps us on the playing field.

49:59

That's what I would say. This whole conversation is funny. I just have to say it because my grandmother's voice is in my head right now for a couple reasons. And I'm like, I don't believe in all this stuff. But also like, is she here? Because for so much of my life, she would say, I would say like, maybe, maybe not. And she would be like, that's what maybe means. And so every time I'm like, you're right. I just have to say maybe. Yeah. So it's it's she kind of would say that. And then another thing which was kind of related to the earlier

50:29

version of Alice and the younger version of you. When I spent the last 96 hours of her life with her in the hospice room, one of the last things she said to me was like, wish I hadn't worried so much, because all that matters is love in the end. Because she was a constant worrier. She was always worried about what would happen. And she had a really rough childhood. So I'm sure some of that played into it. But at the end, was like, man, I wasted so much of my time worrying about all these things that never actually came to be.

50:59

And so it is a good reminder for me, at least, to like, don't worry about as much as you used to worry about, Matt. You'll get there eventually to be in the maybe, but. Yeah. Well, also, too, if you think about it, you know, you could remove the thoughts that you don't know are true. I just saw him say maybe that thought's not true. What else is possible? I actually do this thing. I write down my biggest worries. Maybe I'm never going to get that book deal.

51:26

Maybe I'll never fall in love again. Maybe this, maybe that. And then I asked myself, are you absolutely certain that thought's true? And the beauty of life is nothing is certain and your fears are uncertain. There's no certainty in it. We act like my worry is true. No, there is nothing we know to be true for sure. And so then I say to myself, well, I'm not certain that my fear is true, what else is there? And I write maybe statements out. Maybe everything's okay. Maybe it'll get better.

51:54

Maybe I should do this. Maybe I can go 15, 20 minutes. And what happens at that moment is I get that pop again and I realize the bad thing could have happened. Yes, but so could a lot of other things. So even if the bad thought stays, you realize there are other possibilities. It's possible. Just it's possible. It's exactly. And possible is much better than certain because possible includes many different possibilities.

52:22

And even if that one bad thing happens, then there's breath again. I have seen people change their life and do amazing things, but we have to be willing. Again, it's about staying on the field and not giving up. And like I said, despair is just as much an addiction to certainty as anything else. Yeah. And you have to make it a practice. It sounds like you've really made it a practice throughout your life too. Cause at first you said it was the little things you were doing, you you were

52:49

talking to yourself about the little things and then eventually kind of snowballs into bigger. So I think it's just like anything else. It's like working out. Like you got to start and you got to do it and then things just get easier, more natural, the movement or whatever. I don't know why I'm going to the gym right now. But those things kind of get natural. But I think it probably the fear of or trying to find certainty also plays into that practice.

53:20

is this going to work if I do this? So should I even try? Should I even start the first step? Right. And so I think you just it's like anything else. We just have to try it and, you know, and see how it feels in our body and move towards that. That's so smart, because that's when maybe changes your life. That first moment where it just takes away a stress. It takes away a worry. It you end up doing something that you wouldn't have done. And it just.

53:47

You have to feel it, because it sounds so simple. And yet we don't realize that we live like our worries and fears are happening right now. We live like they're absolute and they're not. And then we turn our back on everything else that was possible. So you're right. It's a practice. It sounds simple, but it's life changing because, again, uncertainty is dictating all your decisions. So it's just a tool to make you embrace uncertainty. And what's really interesting is there are people I work with

54:16

that don't use maybe anymore, now they have faith. And that's a whole different ball game that maybe allowed them to experience uncertainty and now they have faith in the unknown. Now when you get there, you're on the mountaintop. What if this version of Alison could go talk to that 14-year-old version of Alison? What would you want to say to her? I would definitely hug her. I would definitely do that. It's funny you said that, my kids got so much help.

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you know, I gave them, you they had therapy, they had spiritual meditation. I wonder if I would have had those things. I think I would have given her my book and a big hug and a bunch of love. And yeah, if I could have understood that, I think my life would have been different. I still think I had a very, you know, sensitive journey ahead of me, you know, because I'm sensitive and I'm heart based and there was there was a lot of things to learn. But that would have

55:16

That would have changed so much. And I wonder if I wasn't looking for certainty, would I have chosen different things? Because again, I always say that we have this path and because we're so afraid we're not okay, we choose the certain path. And at some point, the certain path disappoints us because there wasn't certainty, right? So yeah, there's a lot that I would say, but yeah.

55:41

There was a lot that I would say the hug though, but honestly, the first thing was the hug because you know, like if you can go back, you would, cause you could feel the pain of like the eight year old, right? So the first, the most important thing I think would be the hug, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's very common. Like, you know, obviously we know we can't go change it, but like, I think if so many of those earlier versions of us knew that things were going to be okay, like things were going to work out and in a good way.

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even despite all the things that life will throw at you, it's just part of life. I think so many of us would maybe have felt a little bit better at those particular times, but in those life shift moments or in those spaces where everything feels really, really scary, it's hard to believe. And so I think of like the life shift and there's people out there listening that are in the older versions of us hearing that someone has moved through

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whatever their experiences were and are in a good place that maybe they feel less alone or they feel inspired to kind of move through, move with, move around all the prepositions that we wanna add to that. I think it's just, I don't know, I wish I could go back, but I do also feel like that eight year old is kind of walking with me now in this little new version of this healing journey that I didn't know that I still needed.

57:05

Yeah, and who would you have been, right? We wouldn't be here right now. If we had different pasts, then this moment wouldn't be happening and we wouldn't be able to relay our stories. But, you there are some people who have faith and sometimes it's religious, sometimes it's through God. And some of us don't have that kind of faith. we get afraid that we're not going to be OK and things aren't going to work out. And I always call maybe cognitive faith. It's the beginning.

57:32

It kind of gives your mind a place to believe it's still possible. And so I used to call it cheating. And then I had this Taoist teacher, you know, who, you know, the story of maybe to them means things are neither good or bad. They said, no, anything that gives you faith is faith. So he said, so maybe maybe is a faith practice after all he would. He wouldn't let me get out of it, calling it like cognitive, like, you know, it's a way to get there.

57:59

Any place that anytime you could give yourself a place where you could believe in what you can't see, it's fake. So maybe as a, a way it gives us that it gives us the opportunity to experience of what the unknown can offer us. And, you know, but I totally understand it. And hopefully somebody listening will start thinking about the maybe and move out of the negativity and the despair and know that more is possible. Then they could see in the moment. That's the hope.

58:27

Well, I mean, if someone's listening is interested in that, maybe you can share a little bit about the books that you have or how they can find you get in your orbit. Like, what's the best way to to get connected with Allison? Sure. I've written three books so far. One is called The Gift of Maybe. That was the book that I was lying on my bathroom floor reading. Then there is a book called A Year Without Men. And that was the experience I had when my husband left. But it was really like a 12 step.

58:54

process to empower women. it wasn't a negative book. was, you know, the experience I had that year and how I move forward. And then there's maybe everything's okay, a parent's guide to less stress and worry, which is maybe more for parents. Then I have maybe cards, which are, they're just so beautiful and delightful. And they're just a little way to practice maybe every day. And then I have my podcast, 10 minutes to less suffering. It's a 10 minute podcast every week where I give people another tool that they could use to

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alleviate some of the suffering in their life. Then I have my website, AlisonCarmen.com, where you could see a lot of my work. And then I also write a lot of articles for some online magazines. And then there's also my work at the Motherhood Center. You're not busy at all. We will include the links to a lot of those elements. Can they all

59:45

Can they find most of stuff through your main website or? Yes. You can at allisoncarman.com, you could find my podcast, my books and all the stuff. Yeah. Yeah. And the podcast is free. So, you know, that's also a really neat way every week to kind of get like a new, a new tool for the, for the two, for our unlimited needed toolbox. Sure is a very large toolbox.

01:00:11

No, thank you for coming on this journey and allowing the conversation to go where it went with my weird questions and my own perceptions of my own life. Thank you for being a part of it. Oh, thank you for having me. I thought this discussion was wonderful. You bring a lot of depth and meaning to the world through this podcast. And I thought this was a great conversation.

01:00:35

Well, I appreciate that. accept that. I look at the Life Shift podcast as the conversations I wish I was able to have as a child or as a teenager where I didn't feel uncomfortable asking a question that didn't have a certain answer. I wasn't allowed in my own brain to ask questions that maybe went against what someone else thought or what society thought or whatever it was.

01:01:02

I'm just so honored that so many people trust me enough to answer those questions. So thank you for being one of those people. And if anyone is listening and you yourself think something that Alison said resonates with you and you want to connect with her, please do find her books, listen to her podcast, go to her website, connect with her. But also what I really love is if someone in your life needs to hear this conversation, we would love it if you share this episode with them because

01:01:30

I think the more that we can spread it beyond our own selves and help other people is how we kind of help heal each other. So that's what I would ask. absolutely. And for all we know, maybe the best is yet to come, right? We don't know. Exactly. It's unknown. We got to embrace that. Absolutely. Thank you for being a part of this. Thank you all for listening. I will be back next week with a brand new episode of the LifeShift Podcast. Thanks again, Allison. Thank you.

01:02:08

For more information, please visit www.thelifeshiftpodcast.com