An Episode a Day Keeps the [fill in the blank] Away? – Bonus with Angela Hollowell

Welcome to this special bonus episode with my incredibly insightful podcasting friend, the inspiring Angela Hollowell.

Angela is a creator.

She's a podcaster, an advocate for authenticity in the creator economy.

In this little episode, which is not so little, it's a little bit long, but it was a great conversation, we talk about the transformative journey of both taking on a month long daily podcast challenge.

So if you remember, in November, I challenged myself to do 30 days in November, every day, recording an episode and putting it out into the world.

Angela did something very similar in February.

So in this episode we discussed what it meant to embrace this imperfection and push through the creative boundaries that we had and really find joy in the process of kind of growing as podcasters.

She reflects on how this challenge allowed her to bridge the gap between her newsletter and her podcasts and experiment with new formats and truly connect with her audience in meaningful ways.

She is a full time creator.

As you know, I do this as my extra on top of my 9 to 5 job, but of course, because who would I be if I didn't do this?

We also talk about the deeper themes of vulnerability, the self awareness, and really staying true to our visions as creators, even with the industry telling us we have to do this, that or the other.

So whether you're a podcaster, you're a creator, or someone just curious about the behind the scenes of podcasters, or me as a Life Shift podcast host and creator and editor and all the things then, I think this episode will give you some candid insights and probably some relatable moments.

And without further ado, here is my little but long bonus episode conversation with my podcasting pal, Angela Hollowell.

I'm Matt Gilhooley and this is the Life Shift Candid conversations about the pivotal moments that have changed lives forever.

Foreign hey everyone, welcome to a very special crossover episode.

Matt Gohooly and I have both completed a daily podcast challenge.

I did mine for the month of February, Matt did his last year, and we just wanted to chop it up about our experiences doing something crazy like this.

What we hoped for, what we planned for, what we got, would we do it again?

And what are some exciting things that we are looking forward to next in our shows.

Matt, thank you so much for being the inspiration for this.

Hey, I can't take all the credit because I saw it from those people that do that National Novel Writing Month where every month they write, every day in the month of November, they write a certain amount of words so that when they're finished, they have a Habit and they have part of their novel complete.

So I was like, maybe I will challenge myself.

And we both regretted it at some points.

We both liked it at some points.

And for me, at the end, I really feel like it was something I enjoyed doing.

If I look back on the whole thing collectively.

Yeah.

I think looking back on it, I was like, this is great for me as a solo podcaster to try out different formats and different styles of using my voice as a solo creator.

But also, if I had a team, this would be so much more feasible.

And for you, I don't know, did you do a recording each day or did you at any point batch any of your episodes?

I did batch some of them in preparation for me traveling because I was trying not to record audio in like a random hotel.

Did I still end up recording audio in a random hotel?

Yes, But I did try to avoid that as much as possible.

Yeah.

A challenge to myself.

The reason I asked that I challenged myself to not batch anything.

I wanted to work my 9 to 5 get and then get on a recording and figure it out in the moment and then within an hour release it.

That was my goal every day for the month of November.

So I picked a shorter month, but not as short as the month you chose.

Okay, I did.

I think I did batch recording for a lot of the deep dives because they took me so long to write.

So I would write them all.

It would take me like a couple hours to write them, and then I would record them in about an hour and then edit and upload and schedule.

So I did that for, I guess, about eight episodes, and then a lot of the rest were just reactions.

So, like reacting to things in media and stuff like that?

No, I would say listening to all of the episodes that you did, I was really impressed and also thinking I could not do that.

There was a lot of work that you put into preparing for most of your episodes and.

And you had solid information.

Not that my episodes were throw away, but they were a different focus.

I had a different goal, I think, with my journey beyond just challenging myself, but for my show is so focused on other people that in my opinion, this was an opportunity for people to get to know me a little bit more.

And some of the quirks that I have that I don't really get to show when I'm holding space for someone's deeply personal, tragic story in that capacity.

So it's totally different approach.

But I didn't have to do what you did where research is involved and writing out a script and Getting everything together.

So kudos to you for that extra piece.

I hope it was valuable as far as information goes for your audience as well.

I think so.

Like, the 2025 State of Black Businesses episode did really well, and I'm glad that I started with that.

I think for me, there will always be part of me that feels like I'm putting myself out there too much.

So I didn't aim to tell super personal stories.

The opposite.

I'm just like, I am putting myself out there in ways that I feel comfortable with.

And even sometimes when I don't feel like I'm being super personal, like when people meet me in person, it feels like they already know me.

And so I'm also hyper aware of that.

So maybe that's clouding my judgment here where I'm already like, you guys know enough.

Like, I'm good with the amount of information about me at this point.

Yeah.

And what's in my head.

So I wanted to do just.

I think for me too, it's like bridging the gap between the newsletter and the podcast because the podcast is so interview focused and the newsletter is largely me.

Just, I want to say thought leadership.

That sounds so stale.

But like, my takes on what's happening in the creator economy mixed with my experience.

And so I wanted that to be a bridge here as well.

And for me, it was like, I treat it kind of like YouTube, just like trying out different creative formats and seeing like what people react to, what they most like most enjoyed, that sort of thing.

Yeah.

And I think a lot of people come to you for that industry knowledge and information.

And I think like, even your Q A episodes were a little insight into your thoughts on things or your concerns about XYZ part of the community.

So I think there's.

You were dipping your toes in it, but your show isn't also, like, focus on that.

And I felt like for me, maybe it would be something that people liked.

And I think some people did.

And some people probably didn't listen because they're like, damn, that's 30 episodes on top of.

Because I was still releasing regular episodes each week on top of that.

So it was a lot.

So I don't know.

I'm sure I lost some people too, because I tried so many episodes.

But I think if you didn't know, you wouldn't have.

Or if you didn't try, you wouldn't have known.

So the people you lost were probably people who are lukewarm.

Anyway, Dan Runcy of Travital, he made a very interesting statement about podcasting, which is people treat podcasts like a starting five.

Like you have five, anywhere between five to 10 that you regularly rotate through, and in order to get a new podcast in there, one has to leave.

Yeah.

And so that's an interesting way to think about it and also probably how I view it.

So my thing was, okay, if I'm in somebody's starting five to 10 podcasts, how can I increase my chances of moving up to that?

Starting to.

They start their day with or something?

Yeah, no, I'm not concerned about it because I think at the end of the day, my show is a passion project.

Right.

This is, I should say, the name of my show.

My show is the Life Shift podcast, and I talk to people about these pivotal moments in their lives that have changed everything.

So, for me, my mom was killed in an accident when I was 8, and at that moment, my entire life changed from one day to the next.

And so I have beautiful, deep conversations with people.

And it's not something that I can.

That or I choose to make a business out of because that's.

It just doesn't feel like it aligns in that way.

I'm not trying to teach anyone anything.

I'm not trying to sell anything to anyone.

And so for me, I can take a lot more chances, I think, with a podcast.

Like, I can put out extra things, like 30 days in a row and not have that giant concern.

And to your point, if people drop off because it's too much, instead of just deleting the ones they don't want to listen to, then it is what it is.

Like, I feel like I'm still doing the service to my audience of sharing these stories in hopes that people feel less alone by hearing someone else's similar story or similar emotions or whatever it may be.

So a question on that, since I think that is a departure from where the podcast industry feels like it's headed right now.

It feels people are still hoping to make podcast businesses a thing and still largely orienting a lot of podcast education and knowledge and conferences around teaching people how to make money from their shows, which is not the goal of everybody, and it's certainly not your goal.

So when you were doing this daily podcast challenge, how did you measure success?

Like, what were some of the things that you were looking for?

I feel like I'm not going to have the answer that you might want me to have.

I think I have no expectations.

My, my.

Truly, this sounds so terrible saying out loud, but it was really a selfish thing for me.

It was more, can I do this?

Can I show more of myself in this space?

To your point of think my people know too much about me?

Can I be as vulnerable as possible with whatever I was talking about that particular day and not worry about it coming out perfectly or worrying about how someone that doesn't resonate with that particular topic feels about it?

So for me, it was very much a goal of, can I do this?

Can I get comfortable enough?

All my guests are doing it.

Can I?

And can I do it with the pressure of doing it every day after work or on a weekend or whatever it may be to get it out there?

So I don't necessarily think I looked at the downloads or engagement on social media as much as I was like, check.

I did that.

And I made it through 30 days of it.

No, I like that I didn't have a number expectation.

I wasn't sure anybody was going to want to just listen to me.

But I really was hoping for at least five people to respond to something that I had put out.

I feel like that's a good measurement, just seeing who's listening.

What do they care about?

What do they think?

How can I start a conversation with this?

Which is always the goal.

Right.

And then I really was just hoping for you, just, can I do this?

Can I push past this perfectionism mindset to just be comfortable with things not being perfect?

The answer is yes.

Reluctantly, but yes.

But yeah, it was hard.

And I think too, for me, because I wrote so much of what I did and research so much before I put anything out.

It was almost like a writing challenge in itself, too.

So it was like writing a newsletter article every day.

And that was in itself its own challenge.

Like, how can I package an idea that I think is cool in a way that resonates with other people?

Yeah.

And I think the way you did it also definitely builds your personal brand in a way of.

Now people know even more, especially the podcast listeners know even more about, like, the way you tick and the way that you think about things.

Like, I think that's so valuable because for those of us that have lots of interview podcasters, we are spotlighting the people that we bring on.

And then people are like, who are you?

Like, I only get pieces of your story.

I only get pieces of your opinions.

So I think there's really.

That's a cool piece for you to have to push people back to.

Here's a piece that I did.

I know you have the newsletter, but at the same time, this is bridging the gap.

Like, you mentioned so in today's newsletter.

I actually tried something different for the first time, which is I used one of the episodes from the podcast challenge as audio and I said, hey, listen to me.

Read this for you, or you can read it yourself.

And I just edited it for clarity and put in all the hyperlinks and photos and stuff.

Great response.

Was not gonna lie.

I was not sure how people were gonna respond to that, but pretty solid.

Response so far, so that's good.

Did you see, you said you wanted five people to, like, engage in some capacity.

Did you see that frequently with your daily episodes?

Not every day, I would say probably on average it was two to three people responding, but over multiple episodes, I'm pretty happy with that.

And even had people sharing without me prompting them to share, which is also like a really good sign.

So I appreciated that.

Where were you finding that engagement?

Was it through your newsletter or mostly LinkedIn?

Mostly LinkedIn, because I think people have caught onto the fact that's the only social platform.

And how did you.

I don't remember how you advertise each episode each daily.

I.

You know what, that was one of the things where I was like, we're just gonna see what happens.

I did not advertise every episode.

That' where I think for me, I was like, if a team was doing this, one person's job was to market, one person's job was to edit.

Another person was like, write and produce and then you have your host.

That would be great.

But for me, I was like, you know what, as long as the episode is out there, we're gonna go with it.

And sometimes I would make a post of saying, these are my last three episodes that I did.

So like a catch all kind of post.

Yeah.

But that's as close as I got to really promoting every episode because you.

Were running your own business at the same time.

So that's a full time gig too.

Yeah.

In terms of podcasting as a whole, I want to talk about like your podcast ecosystem because you have merch, which you're rocking right now.

I made it myself.

I love it.

I love it.

You have a Patreon where people can support you there.

That face is hilarious.

You're welcome.

And then you also just started a newsletter, which I am drastically happy about.

So I would love to hear your thoughts on, like, how the podcast ecosystem is going.

Like, how is that working for you?

I will say it's very hard.

I think it's.

As someone that has a full time job in a totally different industry doing something Totally different.

It's a lot of work, and I feel honest.

If we're being honest here, I feel like there's a huge responsibility to get it right in some capacity in relation to my guest stories.

So I have.

I'm holding this really deep, traumatic story or this super inspirational story.

What am I supposed to do with it and how do I do it?

And then you have all the noise from the industry, like you were pointing out, like, you're supposed to make money and you're supposed to get sponsors, and you're supposed to.

You're supposed to do this on social media, and you're supposed to.

And I'm like, I'm one person.

I'm editing it myself.

I'm doing everything myself.

What?

How can I do this?

So the honest answer is it's really hard, and I don't know how the ecosystem is going.

Patreon.

I made the face because I started a Patreon maybe a year into the journey.

I'm like, a hundred.

And I think I have 260 total episodes of my podcast, but that includes, like, bonus and stuff.

So I think I have 172 interview episodes.

And I started it probably, I don't know, 50 episodes into my journey, the Patreon.

And I went stupid.

Like, I started really dumb, where I had five tiers of, like, this, all these different things.

And I'm like, who am I?

Like, how am I gonna manage this if it actually happens?

And so I Got up to 30 something Patreon supporters, which was covering, like, Riverside.

It was covering my hosting.

It was covering, like, the expenses, not my time, but the expenses.

And that was beautiful.

And then about maybe six months ago, I decided, like, I can't.

Like, it's running me dry, and I'm feeling really guilty taking people's $3, $5, $10, whatever they're giving to me.

And I don't feel like I'm delivering the extra value that I feel like I should.

So I determined that it was best if I was just honest with everyone that I couldn't do that.

And I scaled back to just, like, the lower tier.

You're going to get your episode early.

You're supporting the Life Shift podcast kind of vibe on the Patreon.

I sent individual text messages to everyone saying, hey, this is what I'm doing.

I'm so sorry, but this is all I can do at this time.

And people are super understanding, obviously super kind.

But I went into it thinking, like, I have to do this because everyone's, oh, you have to Have a subscription model and you have to do merch and you have to do this, that, and the other.

So as a.

As someone maybe listening that wants to start a podcast, I would dip your toe in each thing when it makes sense and don't feel like all the noise out there is telling you have to do it.

It's just a suggestion.

You can do it and you can choose to do it.

Like the newsletter thing, I don't know if it's going to actually go through because it's just another thing that I will have to do after work or find the time to do right.

And so I'm going to cheat a little and use some of the tools that are out there that are available to podcaster.

It's an extra fee, but maybe that's another way that I can connect with the audience, share the stories which are most important for me.

I don't know if I answered your question, but I will say it's really frustrating.

No, yo, that's so honest and so appreciated.

Like, full transparency.

I tried merch early on and I just didn't have the audience that wanted to buy merch early on.

And I was using like print on demand, so it wasn't hard to cut off.

And thankfully, I didn't have any stock for real at the house, so that was fine.

But even now, if I were to redo merch, it's okay.

Who's going to be fulfilling?

This is.

That's an extra day that I have to, like, figure out who's getting what and go to the post office and all these other things that I don't really want to make time to do for being honest.

And then also marketing merch, that's another thing to market.

It doesn't just sell itself, unfortunately.

It's just not something I'm excited to dip my toe back into yet.

Right now I've been focused on.

I have some stickers and stuff that I'll give out if you meet me in person.

So when I go to events, I have something to give people.

And I also printed out.

I don't have it next to me, but I printed out like a poster pamphlet situation.

I got a designer to help me on.

So that'll be a special gift for people coming to see me at Podcast Movement Evolutions.

But so I've been trying to focus on stuff like that.

If you see me in person, I'll have something for you.

But just having a store online for the sake of having a store online doesn't sound like something that is worth.

It to me again, it's something that you have to choose.

I have a store online only because I like to make the merch so that I can wear it on all of my episodes.

So, like, every time I record an episode, I'm wearing something that I created for the show.

And it's just fun for me randomly.

People that follow me will buy stuff, but it's not something that's paying any bill that I have.

But it's.

I enjoy that because I like to do digital art.

I like to create on just so if something sparks interest, then I'll create it for myself.

And if other people like it, cool.

And to your point, they're print on demand, so it's not like I'm outlaying a huge amount of money or anything like that.

Yeah.

I think you have to treat.

You have to choose the things that make the most sense in your world for what you can do.

And if it's not, if it doesn't fit in the bucket, then who cares?

Yeah.

Even for the paid version of my newsletter, I didn't start on Patreon.

I started on just having a paid option on Substack.

Yeah.

And I don't have many conversions on that.

And it took me, I would say, almost eight months.

I started it in December of 2023.

It took me till, I think, September of 2024 to actually figure out what I wanted to put behind a paywall.

That takes time.

And you're like, is it worth the money that I'm going to charge?

Yeah, always.

Always.

And so that's like, something that I think about now.

And it's like I've gotten into a groove of writing it every week, and I'm excited about it now, but now it's okay.

This is something else for me to market.

And I put a couple of calls to Actions in my, like, podcast challenge in February, but I haven't done a whole lot other than that, so that's like a challenge I'm figuring out.

And I'm also just, like, on this wave of.

Until I figure out how to monetize the things that are already out there.

Like, I'm not just going to keep adding things for me to think about, like that.

Just spinning my wheels, honestly.

Yeah.

I think that's so counterintuitive to what we've been taught, though.

I feel like we've just got to get that rich, get rich quick schemes, like, those things.

Like, just try this now.

But I think the success comes from putting in the reps.

Right.

Like, I feel like, the more you practice that.

That writing behind the paywall, the better that's going to be, the easier it's going to get to market that.

Right.

And you just.

Didn't you just like surpass a thousand subscribers or something like that on your.

And that was like a.

You had a nice little ramp going on there.

Yeah, yeah.

It's been going up.

The pool gets bigger.

And so now there's more opportunity for you to preview what they can get on the.

Like, I give some freebies away, those kind of things to get people interested and see where you go from there.

But I respect that you can't throw the spaghetti at the wall and see what sticks.

Yeah.

And it also, to me just feels like when people pivot too quickly from something, it's like you don't believe in it enough to stick with it and like, really try to communicate the value of investing or paying for something like that.

I blame it on the noise.

I do.

I blame it on.

There are some great people out there that will post really informative things, but then there's a lot of people that are like, here's how you can do this in 10 easy steps.

And you're just like, probably not like, I feel like there's so much.

But if you're new to it, you.

Oh, is that all it takes?

And then you realize when you go through the process that if you make it past the seven episodes of a podcast that most people don't, you realize there's a lot of work and there's a lot of things that come with it and you can't do it all.

It's not possible to do it all by yourself, at least to.

As someone who does want to make money for my podcast, I just recently joined a podcast network, a second show, Melanin mvp.

And you started that, right?

I did.

I just started that in January.

And it is a night and day difference from when I started Honey and Hustle.

Like Melanin MVP started as a newsletter first, then it became a podcast and had a podcast network by the time I released the first episode.

So not only do I have the owned audience that I did not have when I first started my first podcast, I have this support system of someone who is going to help me think about monetizing the show.

And I already have the five year of experience of doing another podcast, knowing what works and how to do it well without spending a whole lot of money and how to market a show.

And so it's just, it's completely.

I've been like published and stuff.

Now it's like, where was this when I first started?

Nobody tells you all these intangible things that you could be doing right when you first start because so many people are just worried about, what do I say, how do I edit it, how do I get it out on time?

But don't you think you needed those five years of.

Maybe not five years, but you needed the practice and doing things wrong on your own to realize the things you needed to create, Create that successful second one and know the value of a network and know the value of all these things that you do.

I feel part of the journey is not just jumping into this massive success, but rather trudging through the mud to figure out, like, how can I even do this?

Yeah.

No, seriously, though.

And I feel like I'm surprised by it every time, but I don't know why I am.

Like, every time I start a new storytelling venture, I'm like, wow, this is wildly more successful than the first.

And it's.

Yeah, because you have all the experiences from the first time to put into the second one.

But it feels new and it feels exciting.

But.

And congratulations on the new launch.

I couldn't imagine doing another one.

You have multiple newsletters, multiple podcasts, and I think what you do with your business, I think there's so much opportunity to make money through what you do, and it's just finding the way that feels the best for you to make it happen.

You would think that after five years, I wouldn't be asking myself, how do I want to make money?

But I am, like, so often, do I want to make merch?

Sure.

Do I need to make merch to be happy?

Not really, but I think that's the difference.

You're being driven from your heart.

More so than, like, how do I make the most money in the shortest amount of time?

With the best scheme that I can put together.

Like, you want the longevity, you want the something that's fulfilling.

Same reason as doing your 28 episodes in a row of not divulging too much.

You were very intentional about what you're doing.

So there's a lot to be said for that.

There's a lot of flash in the pan things out there that you could do, but that's not going to bring you any joy.

Maybe the money, maybe the paycheck.

But can money buy happiness?

Maybe.

Depends how much we're talking here.

Yeah, no, I think.

I don't know.

I love seeing what you're doing, and it's really inspiring and also frustrating to me, if we're being honest, it's frustrating to me because I still have that voice on my shoulder saying, you should be getting sponsors, you should be putting out a newsletter every week, you should be doing all these things and then you see someone like yourself doing all that times two.

And it's frustrating because I'm like, I can't just.

I don't know how I can.

So there's.

It's not anything against you, it's just like it should be.

The short answer is that I am a full time creator and I didn't realize how much time I didn't have when I had a 9 to 5 until I went full time.

And I was like, hold on, I have way more time to dedicate to this.

And I do think that's something that's left out of these conversations that people are having on social media of here's how to make 10k in one month and here's how to make whatever.

These people have infinite amounts of time and quite frankly, they had a safety net that allowed them the time to be full time for six months to a year to figure it out when it wasn't making money at all.

And a lot of people don't have that.

When I went full time, I was leaving a job, so I still had about a month's salary they had to pay me and I started a new contract.

So I never really lapsed in like getting paid each month.

But going from like a full time job in the middle of the pandemic it was in May 2020, to going into a contract job that was largely hybrid because we couldn't be in person, I had vastly more time to dedicate to like a podcast and all these things and YouTube and figuring it that a lot of people don't have when you have to put food on the table, like, I can't imagine doing this with like kids and a partner.

Like, this would be way harder.

And there's just different things to consider.

And of course, like social media can't catch all of that nuance and I get that and I won't have respect for that.

But also, like this statement remains, a lot of the people that you see that are talking about, here's all you need to do and it's here's all you needed to do.

That's what works for you, my friend.

That's not this bucket listing that's going to translate to everyone.

Yeah.

I think the best part of my journey was as much as I say that frustrates me and the things I can't do.

The best part of my journey was when I realized that I don't have to do.

I don't have to be crime junkies and get a bazillion downloads every episode for my goals with the show to be fulfilled.

I don't have to hit, like, I don't have to do all these things for this show to be worth my time, whatever time that is for me to do.

And so I think you get that.

I don't know that a lot of people that don't podcast for, like, a passion kind of project would get that, because I have, like, people I know that don't really understand the nuance of podcasting.

And they will be like, oh, how many of these do you have?

And how many of that's you have?

I'm like, it might sound like a lot.

It might sound like not a lot, but for me, it still fulfills, like, that initial goal of helping share these stories.

That's how I feel about podcast awards, too.

Like, they're great and I know people that have them.

Yeah.

But also they're in the same position as me, trying to figure out how to get paid for their next show or their next endeavor or find their next sponsor.

Like, it doesn't get you out of those harder conversations around making money as a podcaster.

Plus, you gotta pay for them.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You have to pay to submit, which I also didn't know until I started looking into it.

And like, all these unwritten things, it's great to have.

I'm not.

And validating the people that have podcast awards, but also, is that a measure of success?

For me, it's hard.

It's also hard, too, to compete with someone that has unlimited resources, like a wonder.

Like these bigger publications or publishing houses that will produce these shows.

They have the expansive network.

Right.

That they can share.

I don't know about you, but I listen to a lot of apparently a lot of the same network shows because when a new show comes out, I have 50 of the same.

You should check out this episode.

Episodes in my feed.

And so imagine if I had that on a bigger network with, like, millions of followers on each show.

You have that opportunity, and the awards are easier to get because you have all of that.

So it's.

I know there.

But there is clout that comes with having an award for somebody.

I don't know if it really translates to advertisers.

I think it may translate more to listenership.

From what I've heard, when a listener's.

Oh, this is Webby award winning show.

Yeah, I'm gonna check it out.

It gives it that little credibility.

But for a brand partner, I do think largely they still look at numbers.

And again, is having huge numbers a measure of success for me in this show?

It depends too what you're like.

Some people have hyper local podcasts in which, you know, 30 listeners in this hyper local area might be like a win because they could get.

Might lead to a job or a lead or something like that that gets a $300,000 job that comes along with it.

And so that's a successful podcast because it did what it meant to do.

And then you could have a show that has a bazillion listeners and doesn't do like nobody does anything with besides listen to.

So how do we measure that?

But I guess we're conditioned to measure by downloads.

I measure by the award that I won from Riverside, which this.

Yeah.

Valuable unit of measurement, I think.

Exactly.

Yeah.

I was named like my show was named by this independent writer from Earworthy.

There's a group of people, earworthy publications and they do.

They focus on indie podcasters and they only want to talk about really like indie shows.

They will blast some more popular shows as well.

But they do this annual podcast of the year list and they name my show in 2023, or was it 21 of those years that like the top independent podcast and like, like me and like it's something like that where you get recognized out of the blue for something like that.

And you're like, okay, that is a check mark for me.

I didn't have to submit to that.

I didn't have to vie for that.

It was just like someone out of the kindness of their heart listened through all these podcasts and chose and make and created a list and my name happened to be up towards the top.

Another nod for you that I definitely think is a win is when your name is in rooms that you're not in.

So I did a live with Riverside a couple months ago, I think maybe around this time last year.

And myself and another guest on the show were like, Matt Kahuli is a really great interview based host.

You guys should check him out.

And that's all you need to know.

Everybody loves you.

It's only real.

Right?

That's.

And to your point, that's like something you can't measure, you can't imagine for yourself and you don't know what it feels like until it happens.

And then you're like, like, oh, this is working okay.

Like, this is Worth my time.

Like other people are noticing.

So, yeah, thank you for that.

I love that.

And I think it's funny too, when I, like, will come across a clip and I'm like, wait, that's my name.

Someone just said my name.

So really cool.

I want to get your thoughts on doing a video podcast, especially for a show like yours, because people are sharing such intimate things and vulnerable things and also just with the inherent pushback against video podcast.

I obviously have my thoughts and opinions and stances on that as a filmmaker, but would love to hear your thoughts on, like, why you thought a video podcast format was like, the way to go for your show.

I never thought that, but I did it.

It was just another thing that someone said.

And I said, oh, I need to do it.

But I don't focus on it.

So I don't.

Like, when I'm editing my episodes, I always think audio first.

I always think what that more intimate experience for me is because someone's in my headphone that I'm listening to as I'm going through life.

Whatever I'm doing when I'm listening to podcasts, that's how I was introduced to podcasts.

I don't really watch a lot of YouTube videos myself, but I do offer the video as well.

I've only had one instance in which someone was like, I don't want to be on video.

And they went by a fake name in that episode because they had a restraining order against people that they were talking about.

And so that's what we did there.

But I find that most people open up more when we're recording the video, which is really weird in if you think about it, right?

Like, I feel like you might be more open if nobody could see you being open.

But people tend to really dump all of their internal feelings in a good way in a conversation and open up as if we're old friends.

And so I think there's value in seeing how two people can interact in this new digital world, that we're in a hyper digital world in which most things happen remotely, that you can still create those connections.

And I create the videos so that people can see how to have a conversation, like how to listen to somebody.

If I look at my episode sound waves, 80% of it is my guest and like 20 of it's me.

And then I think of like the 20, 30 year old version of Matt who felt like he needed to be heard, needed to be sounding smart every time he said something to this version where I'm just like, this is your Story to tell.

I'll be here to ask the questions that I was not allowed to ask when I was a kid because maybe they're too personal.

And I think it's the video allows a different aspect of that conversation to be seen, which is cool, but I don't really put much time into learning YouTube.

I just plop it up there and say, have a nice day, see you later.

But you're the opposite, aren't you?

Do you do video first because of your film background?

Yeah, my whole first season.

I'd even put the audio up, really all video.

And I would post the full video to Facebook at the time and I would post the full video to YouTube.

I am a youtuber in the sense that I like watching a lot of YouTube videos.

Like I've been watching YouTube since I was like in high school.

So it's been a part of my personal ethos and culture since my formative years.

And there was always a part of me that was like, I want to be a YouTuber, I want to create videos for YouTube at some point.

And a lot of my videos really mirror how I felt like YouTube was in its prime.

I feel like a lot of people feel like YouTube is in its prime now because of how cheap cameras have gotten and the production quality and all this stuff.

Like people setting up home offices that are just for YouTube.

None of that mattered when I was first watching.

What mattered was, were you entertaining?

Could you record it?

Could you actually be funny?

That was it.

Yeah.

That's what I optimize for in my solo videos especially.

It's like playing around, having fun, showing my personality, but also being somewhat educational but and not really caring about making these larger than life transitions and motion.

Like none of that matters.

Either the video is good or it's not.

And you need motion graphics to make it better.

It doesn't matter.

It's not good in the first place.

So that's my approach to YouTube.

And my YouTube video views have always outpaced my audio.

And at first I was like, maybe it's because I put this first season out on audio like after it was already recorded.

So I didn't have that real time like marketing engagement.

But now I would say even with this month, this past month of me doing solo like audio videos, like I still don't think I'm anywhere near in the realm of what I've done on YouTube.

Like I think I'm in like the 6 or 7 thousands in audio, but I'm in like the 10 thousands in video views.

So it's just like a night and day.

Yeah.

Outpacing.

And I haven't actually put out long form video for the podcast since about halfway through this last season.

So if I had been doing video, putting out video episodes and putting out video episodes of my solo ones, it would not even be close.

And that's a challenge too for me because I'm like, I don't really know the SEO process for YouTube for like discoverability.

And I feel like that's a big part of the game as well, to do it right so that you can play properly in the algorithm.

Right.

I feel like I'm just cheating myself there too.

But again, time.

Yeah, time is a big thing.

And I do think that YouTube packaging is like its whole.

Whole other thing.

Like, I've definitely paid for help on YouTube.

Yeah.

Whether or not it was worth the amount that I paid.

Another question.

But we've all done that.

Yeah.

But I definitely have learned a lot from the people that I've worked with on you.

How to get better at packaging.

Am I perfect at it?

No.

I still haven't hit a thousand subscribers, but I'm happy with the views that I've gotten and with now the consistency that I've been building on the platform.

That feels really good.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's just a whole different platform.

Yeah.

But I feel like that's your space.

Like you said, it was like your formative years, so it's like comfortable to go there as well.

Whereas for me it's.

This is like I'm old, like this vast wasteland of videos everywhere and how do I compete?

So that's why I'm just like, I'm just gonna put it there and if someone, the right person finds it and finds value in it, then it's a win for me.

That's my check mark.

Yeah.

Plus it's a good marketing tool for the guests.

Right.

Like now they have an extra thing they can point people to.

Yeah.

No, for sure.

I think too, especially as someone who runs a video production company.

I think it's also been an interesting co sign.

Like when people.

I would put the.

And I still do put a link to my podcast in my email signature.

So sometimes when people reach out to me and I respond, they'll click on that link and they'll be like, oh, you had so and so on your show.

I love them.

Of course I'll work with you.

So it's always, yeah, you didn't even need to look at my portfolio.

You looked at my podcast.

Is that what we're doing.

So that was an interesting, interesting find and side benefit to having a video podcast because it was like I had worked with them on a video project before.

So it was like this automatic.

It was for better, for worse part of my portfolio, which was cool.

Yeah.

What's your favorite part about podcasting?

And then I want to know what your least favorite part is.

You can start with.

Start with the least favorite.

My least favorite has actually been audio.

Because I feel like that's a weakness, especially when I first started was a weakness of mine.

I didn't understand audio and how to record for two people and not just one person.

So that was a big deal.

And it took.

I actually took down all season one episodes because the audio was so terrible.

I was like, this isn't what I want somebody to start with on the show.

We're just gonna unpublish these and act like they didn't happen.

So a lot of times people start with the trailer and then they go straight into season two, which has drastically better audio and gets better from there each season.

And even now, like, even just getting a podcast mic for my virtual recordings, that took ages.

And like learning how to use it properly to get the best sound out of it.

Ages.

And I'm ashamed to say that, but it is the truth.

And I do think that's something that people don't think about when they do a podcast.

They think they can just turn on their cell phone.

A lot of people do.

Yeah.

And it's just, hey, this doesn't sound good.

And that's the whole point.

It needs to sound good.

So it's taken, it's taken five years for me to get better at audio.

Roughly five years.

And my favorite part, honestly, is the most expensive part, which is filming in person.

If you're surprised by how vulnerable people are willing to be on video, just times up by 10 in person because now they're sitting in a room with you.

I try to give people water, make sure they have something to drink, a nice soft chair, relaxing vibes.

And they're just like, by the end of it, we're old friends.

And I think a lot of people that I've met in person, I still do keep in contact with everybody.

That is also a really big thing too.

I feel like it's important for interview based shows not just have this revolving door of people coming through, but actually building relationships with people that I have on the show, but for the people that I have in person.

That relationship and that affinity happens so much faster than it does with People that I have remotely, I think remotely.

It takes a few more touch points, a little bit more of me following up after the interview to like really get people comfortable having that two way street of us talking.

Yeah.

But in person it's like immediate.

Oh, you're gonna be here.

Yeah, I'll see you there, girl.

Oh, I'm going this weekend.

You should try out this vacation spot.

Oh, you should.

We should meet up for coffee at this spot.

Like just crazy amounts of affinity, which I love.

But I do think we're going to try some different things other than just a sit down interview this year.

After 100 plus episodes, I'm tired of that format.

So that was also maybe my selfish thing with this solo challenge was like, I want to fall in love with podcasting again.

Yeah.

As you should.

Yeah.

If you're going to spend so much time doing it, why would you want to do something you don't that doesn't light you up as much as it used to?

I think it just, I think I just got bored with it.

And it's not any of my guests fault.

They're all amazing.

I love them all.

But I think just for me as a creator, I get like stir crazy and I'm just like, okay, I've mastered this one thing, let me go do something else.

And that's a point where I was at 2, I was like, let me try something else with the podcast and just see what sticks and maybe paved a way for me to do some different styles of in person podcasting and interviews and stuff like that.

So I like it.

I think you should like what?

You should like what you're doing.

I think so too, right?

I think so.

But I think, and I guess here's another maybe perspective on this too, as a video podcaster, primarily because video podcasting has blown up within the past year or so, especially with celebrities getting into the video podcast game to varying levels of quality.

Sure, absolutely.

I think a lot of audio only podcasters are feeling the pinch of why should I do this?

This is boring.

This is a boring format.

I don't want to do it.

It doesn't feel innate to me as a creator.

My response is always, if you don't like it, don't do it.

Just to your point, if you don't enjoy it, don't do it.

Because this is something that is probably not going to make you a lot of money starting out, if at all.

And but for me, as someone who started off with this format years ago, before it was popular, I'm like Okay.

This isn't the only way to do a video podcast.

And maybe part of me just wants to spread my wings creatively and be like, I'm a video podcast.

But we don't just do sit down interviews.

We have done that.

We can do that.

We are capable of that.

But there's also other ways that you can experiment with doing in person episodes.

And I want to get people excited about the format of video podcasting in the way that I'm excited about it as a creator.

And again, this.

While I didn't do a lot of video for the solo episodes, some of them I will turn into video episodes because just what I've noticed with YouTube, you do have to make videos specifically for the platform.

And that sounds so simple.

But like a video that's going to do well on TikTok may not really do well on YouTube.

And so that's something that I think about as well.

So more time.

Yeah, that comes along with it.

No, but I think that's, I think that's great.

I think you have.

It's your podcast.

It's.

You could do whatever you want and you're seemingly really in touch with your audience as well and asking them questions and them asking you questions.

I feel like that's an easy win of.

Do you like this?

I like it.

This is what I'm gonna do.

How do you feel about this new vibe?

And you have that comfortable, comfortable connection with them to figure that out?

Yeah, go for it.

Try to.

I try to.

We'll see.

But I think it's gonna be fun.

Yeah.

At least I'm gonna have fun.

And I hope that fun translates to them.

Oh, it will.

Yeah, for sure.

I think of, I think a video as I have it.

Why not use it?

Versus I'm crafting something specifically for video.

I'm crafting something specifically for audio, but I happen to have the video, so why wouldn't I use it for you then?

What are your favorite and least favorite parts of podcasting?

We'll start with least favorite, and that is marketing the podcast.

And part of me is I feel like I'm screaming into the void sometimes where I'm just like, here it is, you know, everyone you know.

And I understand that people that see your posts aren't always going to engage with your post, but they still might see it and it might resonate and it might do all the things that you want it to do, but you just don't know.

So I understand that, but it just sometimes it feels like, yeah, Matt, we know you Have a podcast and you had a really inspiring guest on and they have a really important story.

We know we get it.

And so every time I post I'm like, so the marketing part is really the part I don't.

I think hate is the wrong word, but it's the part that I feel that I wish I liked more and I wish I felt I was good at it.

And that's the thing on, if I can outsource anything, that's probably going to be the thing that I'm going to outsource some help with because it's not as natural as I want it to feel for me.

So that's the part that I struggle with the most.

I should say, not hate.

And the thing I love the most is like twofold one.

Obviously I love that I get to hear and witness these stories because I think of the eight year old version of me whose mom just died and felt like I was the only kid who had a dead mom.

It just felt so alone in that.

And growing up I, I thought my dad needed to see that I was happy and I needed to be perfect so he wouldn't leave.

Because in.

When I was a kid, it felt like my mom left because she died.

And so if I had been able to see a 40 year old version of Matt being successful or doing whatever he wanted to do and realizing that, oh, there is, there's hope, you're not alone.

Other people have gone through this.

So I think about that when I hold space for these particular stories, it just feels maybe this person is going to heal from sharing their story.

Maybe someone out there is, am I the only one going through this?

And they hear it.

So I think that's my favorite part.

In tandem with the fact that the show feels like it's doing what it's supposed to do because I haven't had to look for a guest and since October 2022.

So like I get so many pitches.

Obviously some of them are terrible and we just don't talk about those.

But I get so many like really hyper focused, super specific pitches from people that like want to share their story in a way that they haven't shared it before or whatever it may be for the first time.

I had a lot of people that have come on and shared this like publicly for the first time.

And that part is just who me.

Like that little kid in me is like you, you pick me.

Like when you were saying people talk about me when I'm not in the room like me.

So there's that, that, that Part I think lights me up the most is that people are willing to talk to me, the stranger, about their personal stories.

Allow me to ask the questions that maybe we're not supposed to ask.

I think I said that before.

I don't know.

I think so many of us grew up like our parents told us, you don't say that stuff out loud or you don't ask that type of question.

And now feeling comfortable enough to do that, I think probably lights me up the most.

Even if the story is like super traumatic and terrible, it's.

But it's a human story, right?

And not everything is sunshine and rainbows.

So sometimes we have to talk about the hard stuff.

And I think that's where we connect with each other the most, is in those harder moments.

No, I love that.

And I think that's, I think, again, what makes your show so special and why people are so willing to talk about it when you're not in the room.

Because sometimes when you're even listening to these type of shows and stories, you're like, oh, I need to make space as the listener right now.

And it may take you a little minute to process what you heard and think about what that story means to you.

But then to go back really as a podcaster and just appreciate your ability as a host to bring that out of someone that you likely have never met in person, may never meet in person, is also a very skilled thing to do.

And again, I think with the rise of celebrity podcasting and their shows being primarily interview focused shows, we are seeing that interviewing is a skill.

And I think people are appreciating this skill and the vulnerability and the intentionality that you bring to the space, I'll.

Tell you my secret.

Listening.

That's it.

Listen.

As a genuinely curious human being that cares about someone else's story.

Right.

I think you don't need to know much more than that secret.

I don't research my guests because I don't want to know.

Interesting.

Because if I know, being a type A person as I am, if I know I'm going to take that conversation exactly down the path that I've planned out in my head.

But if I don't have all that background and it's uncovered alive in front of me and someone's going to shock me with whatever they're going to say next, it allows me the freedom to release any preconceived questions that I might come in with and run down that path.

Because they might come on, talk, want to talk about something else, but they Said something that, like, pointed us way in another direction.

And that is where that conversation, in my opinion, was supposed to go.

And so I think, like, I don't have a lot of technical interviewing skills, but I've taught myself now with this podcast, thankfully, to listen and be curious and ask the questions.

And I always tell people, I'm like, I don't do a lot of research because the questions are coming from my own curiosity.

And I tell them, I'm like, but if I say something that is wildly inappropriate or something that you just don't want to answer, please feel free to tell me.

No, no, Matt, that's crazy.

Why would you ask me that question?

So far, nobody's done that, so that's good.

But at the same time, it gives everyone the freedom to.

To have the conversation go where it's supposed to go.

So I just gave away all my secrets.

But they're very easy.

Everyone can do it.

I think not everyone can do that.

Let me just be clear.

No.

And I say that as someone who is maybe a little more the opposite, where I do put a lot of time into researching my guest.

I saw your face when I said that.

My face was like, what?

This is unheard of.

No research.

But I think, too, like, the reason why I say not everybody can do that is because.

And I'll say this about me, when I first started interviewing people, when I didn't maybe put as much time into research or anything like that, there would be times where I'm like, oh, they said something that was really good.

I want to go down that path.

But then I'm going to forget the question that I had originally.

And sometimes, like, I just had to learn.

Sometimes you just got to leave it and be okay with leaving it and be okay with the direction that the conversation naturally flows.

And even in research, like, I'll have certain things that I want to talk about.

And part of that, too, can from, again, making videos for YouTube.

Like, you have to have a value proposition video.

And what is the curiosity loop that I have as an interviewer that I want to close with this interview?

And so that's where some of the research comes in.

But also, again, like, as long as I meet whatever my curiosity gap is, we can talk about whatever.

I literally had somebody on the show, and we were talking about how old black women love watching old westerns.

Like, really?

What does that have to do with business?

Absolutely nothing.

But we were interested, so we talked about.

I didn't know this was a thing.

Andy Griffith.

Did you just say Andy Griffith was all Western.

Yeah, it was Mayberry, but that's a different story.

We could go down that avenue at another point, but no, I accept that.

But also, I love that you just said that you've given yourself the permission to forget the questions.

That's something that I talked to Kendall at Riverside about.

It was like, some.

Which we had a conversation about, like, how do you get people to open up?

And, like, how do you listen?

And all these things.

I was like, first thing I had to do was allow myself to forget so that I can continue listening.

Because your guests might keep talking, and instead of listening to what else is happening, you're stuck on this.

Oh, that's a good idea.

I'm gonna ask them that.

And you're not even listening to the rest of the story, so you just have to give yourself permission.

So I love that you do that.

But close your loops.

Those are important.

Another interview technique that I think you do really well is active listening.

I know you say, oh, I just listen.

I just ask questions.

But I do think you give a lot of, like, physical responses, which is why the video probably does better than what you expect.

But when I see your short clips, whenever you do post them, I know it's a whole thing.

But whenever you do post your short clips, I'm like, yo.

It always starts off with you being like, I am attentive.

I am here.

Like, I am focused on whatever you are saying.

And I think that is something that, again, like, even in regular conversation, people struggle with.

They'll ask you something, and then they'll be like, okay, I'm gonna order a drink now.

Oh, I'm gonna look at this plant.

Or, oh, I'm gonna stare at this girl's hair or something.

We just get so distracted so easily that it's easy for people to feel like they're not being listened to even in everyday conversation.

So when you're, like, on an interview like this, even a remote interview, when people feel like, oh, they're tuned in.

Oh, they're actually listening.

Oh, they're giving me, like, feedback.

Oh, they're not just nodding, but they're, like, actually reacting to what I'm saying, that is a level of nuance that especially indie podcasters may not really pick up on sometimes.

Do you ever black out when you're doing interviews?

I don't think that I've ever done that.

So let me explain.

I have this.

It's not all the time, but every once in a while, maybe more often that I will be doing an interview and I'll have this beautiful conversation and it will end and then I'll go to edit it and I'll be like, I don't remember saying that.

Like, I don't remember part.

Like, it's like a brand new experience when I go in to edit it.

And so, like, part of it is, oh, Matt, you were doing your job.

You were there.

But, like, I was totally, like, there and nowhere else.

And then I.

To the point that I don't even remember it.

So it's really fascinating to me.

So know, maybe I'm just the only one that does that.

Oh, no.

The only time that I'll forget what I've said is if it's been a long time since I recorded oh no, between the edit.

Then I'm like, okay, what did we talk about?

What was said?

This will be like two hours later as I'm editing the episode and I'll be listening and I'm like, I don't remember saying that two hours ago in the conversation.

Like, to me, it's a good thing, I guess, because I'm fully, like, to your point, I'm fully there for them.

I mean, the old version of Matt, when I was really trying to climb the corporate ladder, was always just waiting for the next silence.

It wasn't waiting to engage, right?

It was just like, where's the next silence?

So that I can say the smartest thing in the room that was on my piece of paper.

I wasn't listening to anyone else.

I don't know what I just showed you.

So it's a nice thing to notice these little silly quirks that I have now when I listen.

It's just, I don't know.

I love this journey.

I love.

I don't care if I don't make a ton of money from it.

I don't care that everyone has hobbies, right, that you pay for.

So if I'm spending some money every month to do this that makes me feel this good, then I feel like we're all winning.

I want to go back.

So you've said this a couple times in this conversation where you will say, when I was younger, I just wanted to be the smartest person in the room.

And I would always be looking for an opportunity to show that I was the smartest person in the room.

And that equated to not maybe being as good of a listener as you are now.

I think I equate to that on some level.

Like, I started my podcast when I was 26, so relatively young and I'm 31 now.

So five years later, I'm a much, hopefully more mature person and more experienced person and have definitely learned that I am not the smartest person in the room.

But I do think that I started this show because I knew I would.

I knew I was fresh off of being full time.

Like, I just started going full time when I started this show, and I was like, there's people who have been doing this for a year.

So I always.

Maybe this show was my opportunity to really intentionally be in a space where I knew I wasn't the smartest person in the conversation.

And it forced me in a good way.

I was really receptive to that natural progression of me just listening and taking that listener role.

But I don't think that a lot of people would put themselves in that position knowingly a lot of times, like, pre 30, because, again, like, we.

We're focused on having career sustainability, we're trying to grow our income, we're trying to do all the things that we think we're capable of in our 20s that maybe are just interesting stepping stones into who we are as people.

Yeah, no, I think it's.

I think that's commendable.

I don't think a lot of people in their 20s would choose to do something that maybe would make them uncomfortable, their normal kind of route.

I was very much.

And I still have the perfectionist tendencies.

To me, that was like, I don't want to choose a lot of things that I know that I might not be good at.

I don't know for sure that I'm good at.

Maybe is a better way to say that, like, I would choose the easiest classes in school because I knew I was going to get an A, and therefore my family would be proud and, like, at all the things that would snowball in that way.

And so during the pandemic, I got a second master master's degree because I was bored.

And when I went into it, I told myself that I was only going to choose the electives that scared me.

So in your way of doing your podcast, that was me in my 40s of choosing hard things, like the class that I'm like, I don't know what that means.

So I'm gonna take that class.

Like this podcast, the Life Shift, came from a class in that program, and I chose the podcasting class because I was like, that's scary.

I don't know how to do that.

What should I do?

How.

Who's going to listen to, like, all the thoughts that come in your head?

But then it forced me to do it.

And here we are, I'm starting my fourth year and in this month.

So you never know.

These things probably are the things we should be doing.

The things that are hard, that are scary.

Bring us to those points.

I have a question.

So I didn't know you were four years in, but that does make sense.

What's the timeline?

How, like, how do you feel about going to podcasts industry events?

Is that something that you've done in the past?

Is something that you want to do, care to do?

I want to do.

I'm scared to do.

Because I feel like I'm gonna have to defend the way that I do me and my podcast.

Right.

Like, to the whole point of the industry telling us what we should be doing or we should be doing this, we should be doing that.

Why are you doing this?

Why are you doing it that way?

You should be cutting this out, like, whatever it may be.

So I haven't gone yet.

I live in Orlando, which is right down the street from podfest, or I think that's what it's called.

Right?

Yeah.

Every January.

I even had a free ticket, like, two years ago.

And I didn't go because I do have this fear.

I don't know why.

That I'm gonna have to defend things or make it.

I don't know.

I don't know why I don't go, but I should go because I like talking to other podcasters.

I haven't been a podfest yet, but I have been to a couple podcast events, hoping to do a couple more this year.

They're fun.

I've never felt like I've had to defend.

That's good.

Myself, I have definitely been in situations where I felt uncomfortable.

I would love to go and be part of a panel.

Have you done that yet?

No.

Yes.

Yes.

I did a panel last year at Afros and Audio.

I would love to do another panel.

They feel so much less stressful than developing a talk.

My God.

But, yeah, so, yeah, I would love to do a panel again.

So if you ever want to do a panel.

Yeah, that's.

I feel like that's how I dip my toe in it.

Oh, I have to go.

Because I'm part of this panel, but also now I can interact with all the other podcasters.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I feel like having just that speaker badge just lets people.

Puts people at ease.

Like, then you don't really have to.

Defend, and there's really nothing to defend.

Right.

Because this is mine.

I can do whatever I want with my show.

So there's nothing to defend.

I think it's just that.

That perfectionist thing.

And I think it's.

As soon as I go, I would realize, like, why did I wait?

But also it's the apprehension, it's the.

The pre nervousness of actually going that I just haven't gone yet.

So maybe next year or later this year.

I'm sure there are places to go.

Yeah.

Okay.

Okay.

I just want to plant the seed.

Yeah.

Planted.

Planted.

There is soil and water.

It's germinating.

Is that the word?

That is the word.

I think we're gonna go with it even if it's not.

How about that?

Because this is our show.

Exactly.

No, I think this is.

I love that we've been able to have this conversation so openly about the way that we do because our shows couldn't be more different.

Right.

Like, I feel like our approaches are different.

Our feelings about how we like why we make, the choices we make are different.

You do a lot of research, you do a lot of script writing.

I do none of that.

I don't like to know much more than a form, but yet there's so much that I can relate to about the way you feel about your projects and the things that you do.

And so it again, it's like one of these things where like our worlds are so different, but so similar.

And I think that's what I find in a lot of this.

The conversations I have with my guests too.

It's like I didn't go through what they went through, but I can feel all the same things that they're talking about right there.

I love that we could have this wildly different conversation but still understand exactly how the other one's feeling.

Oh, yeah, definitely.

A thousand percent.

What was your favorite emotion through the 28 days of.

What was the most impactful emotion?

I guess I should say in that 28 days of doing this little challenge that kind of brought us to this conversation.

There was a moment, it was Valentine's Day.

I was in a hotel room in Asheville, North Carolina.

I was there for a board meeting for a non profit that I'm on the board of.

And I just remember, like being just absolutely dog tired.

If you've ever been on a nonprofit board retreat, there's so much information shoved to such a small amount of time that it's like drinking from a fire hose.

And I remember just this one thing that I do at the end of each day is like my own little self care.

No matter how busy I get is I'll watch like an episode of a TV show just to have 30 minutes, 40 minutes to myself.

And while I'm watching the TV show, I took a little minute to check, like, the stats on whatever my podcast was for that month.

And I just remember being belated in this private moment in the middle of the night by myself that my show had done the most downloads we've done in a month, only halfway through the month of February.

And I'm like, nobody else is going to care about this.

Nobody, literally nobody in the world is up at this time of night checking my podcast test but me.

And it's not something that's like, Forward facing, like, YouTube views on a video so only people would know if I told them.

But I care so much that, like, people are tuning in to this extent and, like, really reacting to what I'm doing.

And that was my Valentine's Day moment, which sounds so, like, cheesy and whatever, but.

But I was really happy with myself.

It just feels like you're on the right path when something like that happens, because you could look at that stat on a different day and feel different.

Like it's all the confluence of things happening to bring you there.

I think mine was at the end.

And it wasn't because it was the end, but it was because it was the end.

It felt like I achieved this thing that initially 30 days earlier felt so insurmountable and scary.

And by the end, I had a process in place.

It felt very organic.

I didn't come in with scripts or anything like that.

Some days I actually just was like, I would randomize my list of ideas and pick it on whatever felt the most.

How vulnerable do you want to be that day, Matt?

And so at the end, which is actually how I won this gift card from Riverside, but I put together, like, this video of all the openings of my.

So it's day one, it's day two.

Like, I told everyone what day it was and I put it together and I was like, damn, Matt, you did that.

You did all 30 days in the way that you said you were going to do.

And so it was like this, like a nice accomplishment thing to the point where I was like, I could do that again.

Would you do it again?

O.

I don't know if I'm being honest, I have no idea.

What if you do it every February?

Are you challenging me, Matt?

I'm not challenging you.

I'm suggesting it.

You're suggesting it.

I will consider it.

My anaconda will consider it.

What if you do a very similar approach to what you did each day and it becomes this formulaic.

Each day you have this thing, and then you can look back on your February's from the past.

I will consider it.

One crazy idea I had was actually doing a video with each episode every day.

If I did it again, that's what I did.

But it was just like me talking to the screen and saying lots of things.

I think I might have cried in one of them.

I'm not sure.

So it's out there, you know?

And I think this is how we show up as humans and this is how we do our thing.

So if you do it, I'll do it.

But maybe not in February.

I'll choose a longer month.

Okay.

The gauntlet has been thrown down.

So next February, catch me doing a daily podcast again.

We will memorialize this particular clip and get it out there.

No, thank you for wanting to chat about this.

I think beyond this challenge, it's so fun to talk to other people about their process and the way they approach things.

And I feel like, like I know you so much better, even though I feel like I know you through reading your newsletter and all the other pieces.

But, like, this was the extra piece of, like, humanity that comes into the behind the creator kind of feeling.

So thank you for this.

I, I, that, to me, is the best compliment ever.

Honestly, that's a win for me to hear that.

So I remember we had a conversation on Zoom two years ago, maybe, and you were like, matt, just do it.

Whatever we were talking about, I don't know if I did it.

I don't know what it was, but it was me being like, I don't know if I can do that.

You're like, just do it.

What are you waiting for?

So thank you for that.

It stuck with me.

And so I think there's.

I'm an encourager.

I'm an encourager.

I encourage people to do crazy stuff.

You encouraged me to do crazy stuff, so it paid off.

Exactly.

I hope your listeners and my listeners enjoyed this little conversation.

That doesn't really fit either bucket of what we do, but I think it's a beautiful opportunity to get to know each other and our audiences, to get to know you and maybe me a little bit more.

We will see you when our next episode comes out.

For more information, please visit www.thelifeshiftpodcast.com.