The Cost of Quiet: Learning to Speak Up After Years of Silence

Matt Gilhooly (00:00)
There's a version of silence that looks like peace. No arguments, no waves, no mess. Just a surface so clean you start to forget that there's anything underneath. Colette built that life and she was good at it. Right up until the night she sat on the couch with a newborn, crying and completely invisible to the person sitting three feet away. That moment didn't end her marriage, not right then, but it started something. A slow, honest reckoning with what it costs to keep quiet.

to shrink yourself into the shape you thought the world needed to mistake a lack of conflict for real connection. Colette is now a couples therapist, an author, a speaker has spent years helping people find the language for the things they were too afraid to say. But before any of that, she had to learn it herself. This is her story.

Matt Gilhooly (01:43)
Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Lifeshift Podcast. I am here with Colette. Hello, Colette.

Colette Fehr (01:48)
Hey man, how are you?

Matt Gilhooly (01:50)
I'm well and tired and also surprised that you live basically down the street.

Colette Fehr (01:57)
So weird. I mean, I expected you to say you were in like Anaheim, California or something, you know, not down the road in Orlando.

Matt Gilhooly (02:04)
I mean...

Yeah, yeah, it's always fascinating to me because I think it doesn't matter where people live anymore. You know, in this world that feels so connected, I talk to people all over the world and I have friends all over the world and it feels, I feel as connected, maybe not as connected, but I feel very connected to these people that maybe 20 plus years ago, it was really hard to maintain a relationship like that. So I mean, the power of remote.

recording gives us this ability to have conversations whether you live down the street or not in this way. So I like it.

Colette Fehr (02:42)
I agree,

although we could have met in person in this case.

Matt Gilhooly (02:46)
Well, we could have, but I wouldn't have anywhere for you to sit. So this works out better.

Colette Fehr (02:52)
Near or far?

Matt Gilhooly (02:52)
Well, thank you. Exactly. Thank

you for wanting to be a part of the Life Shift podcast. I tell people way too often, but this experience is nothing that I could have imagined for myself. Nothing that I couldn't imagine being able to talk to 250 plus so far people all over the world about very deeply personal stories that they have and connect with people in unimaginable ways, even though their stories are so wildly different. Like I think

We all have a different story, but the way we feel in certain moments of our stories are so similar to each other that it makes it easy to relate to someone else, even if they've lived a completely different life than we have. So thank you for just wanting to be a part of this.

Colette Fehr (03:38)
Thanks for having me. And I find the very same thing in therapy, know, people with wildly different circumstances and backgrounds, race, ethnicity, know, everything, but these core existential themes.

that are so foundational to the human condition. And it's so powerful when we hear those stories that resonate with us and make us like we were chatting about before we started. It makes us feel less alone and seen and understood. And I also think it helps people organize and make sense of their own experience to hear some of it reflected back in what someone else shares.

Matt Gilhooly (04:16)
Totally.

think there's a lot of power. I've experienced it actually through this podcast in which I heard someone say something that I used to think or did think at one point in time and I assigned shame to thinking that way. And when I heard this guest talk about it, I was like, that validated that I'm not weird. And that wasn't a shameful thing. It was just the way she and I were processing our grief and we were just protecting ourselves. But it's

that mirror piece is so like powerful because then you just release the things that you've been carrying for so long that maybe you forgot about for a while.

Colette Fehr (04:54)
So true.

So true, and the release of shame in hearing those other stories. Because shame is really, even though it can be a useful emotion in certain contexts, it's also really crippling and debilitating for people because we carry too much of it. So I love what you're doing with the show, and I'm glad to be here.

Matt Gilhooly (05:12)
Yeah.

Well, thank you. And I look forward to hearing your story. But before we do that, maybe you can tell us who Colette is in 2026. Like, how do you show up in the world? How do you identify these days?

Colette Fehr (05:27)
So these days I identify as a psychotherapist, an author, which is very exciting because I've wanted to be an author my entire life since a very little girl. And I'm also a speaker. I'm a podcast host. But it's funny that I went in that order because first and foremost, I mean, I'm a wife. Not that that's not important, but I'm a mom, which is really important to me. I have two adult daughters who are 22 and 25.

recently launched into the world. And I think of myself, I'm a daughter, but I think of myself also as a really great friend and I'm an open book kind of person. I really show up in the exact same way and all of these contexts for good or bad. One thing that's true about me now that's always been true is I tend to overshare, you know, I wear my heart on my sleeve. There's nothing held back.

Matt Gilhooly (06:20)
Me too.

Colette Fehr (06:25)
It doesn't take a lot of time to get to know me. And back to that idea of when you're vulnerable, vulnerability is so overused now, it almost loses its meaning. But the real deal is really powerful. If you show your humanity, people connect to you, you feel better, you feel less alone, they feel better. And that's how I've always showed up in the world. yeah, yeah.

Matt Gilhooly (06:49)
Really?

Colette Fehr (06:52)
And sometimes it's gotten me hurt at times, but more often than not, it's been a positive. And I think that's the through thread that's still true and has brought a lot of satisfaction to my life.

Matt Gilhooly (06:56)
Yeah.

Yeah, think that, I mean, I think that's remarkable and wonderful because you must have had a good environment growing up because I think society for a lot of people, at least I'll speak for my generation, I'm mid forties now and society told us that we hide the vulnerable stuff. We don't show quote unquote weakness when now we've come to realize that that kind of is a superpower.

in a way of being fully you in front of anyone at any time. But we all put on these masks to kind of show up in the way that we thought society wanted us to show up. I think now, at least the people I know that are my age are now kind of shedding those masks and realizing they can show up fully themselves without, you know, without shame, if you will. Whereas

Colette Fehr (07:58)
Yeah.

Yeah. And it's not an easy thing to do. So I'm 52 and I grew up in a suburb outside of New York City in a town called Rye. I went to school in Greenwich, Connecticut. It was, I did not fit the mold of the typical person there and that everybody was, it was a very small, very affluent at the time. mean, I'm, you know, this is going back 40 years, but I went to a small all girls private school.

and everybody was like rail thin, blonde, blue eyed, pretty generic looking, if you will, right? White, mean, whiter than white. And mean, obviously I'm white, but other than that, my personality was always a little different. And the funny thing is I did get those shame based messages of this is how you should be, you know?

more appropriate and more like this is how we do things in this very Keeping Up With The Joneses environment. But I, even though I had some bad experiences, I mean, I was, I got along with the other kids in my school and I always had friends, but I was always in trouble with the nuns. I went to Catholic school. I mean, I had a very imaginative.

inner world and at one point they had me psychologically tested because I had invented these seven sisters. I had no siblings until I was 10, but I wanted a sister. So I invented these seven sisters and I acted as if they were real. I knew they weren't, but to the point where I would fake phone conversations with them and make up these elaborate stories and.

you know, the nuns had me tested for did I have delusions? Did I think these sisters? That's how far I went with it. And of course, I remember being six years old and then being like, Colette, do you think these sisters are real? And I was like, of course not. Are you ridiculous? You know? I mean, so I always sort of felt like I had friends and was connected and I couldn't help but be myself, but I would get a lot of

Matt Gilhooly (09:57)
if

Colette Fehr (10:12)
feedback at times and one of the self-limiting beliefs or core painful stories I still carry at times is that I feel misunderstood. So I end up just showing myself, like it's the way I am. It's not even like, now I have permission. I almost can't help it and never could. But there have been times in my life and certainly as we get more into my own life shifts, there have been a couple of times where

I did really struggle and I got very painful feedback that was confusing. It's just that even if someone shames me or judges me and I suffer the pain, I still can't stop like just being the way I am. No, no.

Matt Gilhooly (10:55)
I don't see that as a bad thing. I see that as a good thing. But I also

think about the rules and the rigidity that comes with a like religious school and the black and white that is there despite the fact that religion is not so black and white. It requires you to believe in things that we don't necessarily know to be true or false. So it's I would imagine that well.

I'm guessing here, but I'm sure you've played this game. Do you think if you went to like a public school that it would have been different because there was more acceptance of creative minds of kids just being kids, whereas maybe something a little bit more rigid is is harder to face.

Colette Fehr (11:36)
Yeah.

Yeah, I

mean quite possibly, you know, I think that what's interesting too, so I was the kid also in even middle school, again, going back 40 years, who was raising my hand in Catholic school and being like, let's talk about abortion and the hypocrisy of forbidding women. I mean, I was always pushing back.

Matt Gilhooly (12:02)
Good for you.

Colette Fehr (12:03)
Yeah, I mean, I've always been a critical thinker and I wasn't really trying to be a jerk, but I was naturally curious, which is a quality. And I wanted to have those dialogues. So I had mixed reactions to that. mean, on the one hand, Catholicism, at least where I went to school, especially the second school, I ended up getting kicked out of the first school I went to, Convent of the Sacred Heart in the eighth grade. Yeah. And that was coincidentally,

Matt Gilhooly (12:11)
Right? Yes.

Colette Fehr (12:32)
or not so coincidentally, the same time that my parents started having problems and they got divorced when I was in college finally after I had initially a very idyllic childhood at home. Everything kind of blew up overnight and my parents were arguing all the time. And so I probably started to amplify my acting out. Ultimately, I was asked not to return to the school. I'd gone there all the way from kindergarten through eighth grade.

Yeah. And it was a very small, tight-knit school. My parents were very involved, so this was a big deal. But I ended up in another Catholic school where the head nun of the school really got me. And she was like, in a good way. And she was like, we love Colette. We encourage critical thinking here. We want her.

Matt Gilhooly (13:15)
in a good way. Okay.

Colette Fehr (13:24)
to ask these questions. And so even though Catholicism is such an ancient religion, it's certainly rigid, it's caused all kinds of problems depending on how you interpret it. In that environment, I was finally really encouraged to, know, a lot of it I just don't doctrinally accept and never did. And there I was allowed to...

push back and I think they did really encourage my creativity. But I just want to say one other thing to this. So I didn't actually start at Sacred Heart in kindergarten. I started at Sacred Heart in first grade. And in those early years, it's funny that we're talking about creativity, I went to a Montessori school and I swear to you to this day, I have so much rich memory of that time. I think I was there for three years like,

you know, preschool pre-K and I was verbal very young. So I have a lot of early memory. It was all play. was all learning by play. was all imagination. It was the most wonderful thing. And I think that fertile ground really helped me a lot.

Matt Gilhooly (14:36)
Yeah, I mean, I think your experience is the one that we wish for all people as far as you staying curious, not being shut down. Because I mean, it can happen. It doesn't have to be a private religious school. It can happen at any school. But I think that you like you said you couldn't help it. You were just that way, which is great. I think so many kids are smushed down into a box.

because of fear or because they want to fit in or just like we said, they put on the mask and then the mask becomes reality. Whereas you were like, I am not putting on that mask. I am just going to be me and I'm going to walk through and you know, I'm going to hit some bumps and I'm going to recover. But I'm sure it taught you so much about the people around you and yourself that I would imagine that you brought that into adulthood.

Colette Fehr (15:26)
Yeah, yeah, I think so. And I think sometimes a difficult or different kid ends up just being a really interesting adult. So, you know, maybe I'm giving myself too much credit, but I think overall it was really a good thing. But I look back and I'm like, God, I just definitely marched to the beat of my own drum. Like all kinds of little...

Matt Gilhooly (15:39)
Hey.

Colette Fehr (15:51)
quirky things like, you my mom wouldn't let me grow my hair when I was three. I had a friend who had a speech impediment. She could not clearly articulate anything, but I could understand her somehow. No one else could. And she had really long hair. I this is the seventies and I wanted long hair and my mom kept my hair short. So I decided that I would wear my ballet tights on my head every day as hair. And I

Matt Gilhooly (16:20)
as one does.

Colette Fehr (16:21)
Yes, as one does and I wore it to the grocery store and we have childhood pictures of me and there I am with my pink tights like.

Matt Gilhooly (16:29)
Hey, you know, just living up that creativity and I love that. Did it did it continue to serve you well, like college, adulthood, you mentioned marriages and whatnot? Did like, did that energy serve you in the right way?

Colette Fehr (16:46)
think so, but you know, this is where it's paradoxical and multiple things can be true. Just as I have this quirky personality that occasionally I get, you know, little feedback comments where I'd feel misunderstood or and things that would really hurt me, but it never

It never really succeeded in shutting me down. However, at the same time, and this really starts to hit on what I think of as my first big life shift, is that because my parents had all that arguing, and again, I grew up Catholic a long time ago, so I, in this small environment of this Catholic school, I didn't know one person who had divorced parents, which is kind of shocking, because even back then, people got divorced. There was not one person in my extended family.

who had ever been divorced. And so when my parents started having problems and they separated, that was very othering to me. It may sound strange in light of how normalized divorce is, but I felt very self-conscious about that. And then the home environment went from being really pretty seemingly idyllic. I'm sure there was a lot of trouble between my parents brewing under the surface that I wasn't privy to, but eventually it was all on the surface.

There was a lot of arguing. My mom doesn't like when I tell the story this way. In my book, I even reference this, that my parents argued. My mom cannot hear it. She doesn't recall it that way and can't really validate my experience on that, which is interesting. But that is how I recall it. And that was my experience being a kid.

lying in bed, listening to my parents argue, you know, with a stomach ache, praying and wishing for it to stop. So I felt loved, but what I learned was these adults who love me still can't really protect and keep me safe. And conflict is a very bad thing. And again, that keeping up with the Joneses environment, everybody is like rich and smiling and has no problem.

Matt Gilhooly (18:47)
Mm.

Colette Fehr (18:59)
and blends in with each other. even though I had this unique personality, some part of me that craved safety, you know, thought of that as what I can create as an adult. I'm going to have this perfect marriage. I'm going to... Yeah, kind of. Kind of. I mean, I don't think I ever thought about it that way at the time, but I really did think I'm going to have the perfect husband one day. And you know, we...

Matt Gilhooly (19:15)
Step for Dwarves kind of thing.

Colette Fehr (19:27)
On some level, we seek to emulate what's modeled for us. And all that was modeled for me was these people. I'm sure half of them, if not more, had surface marriages. What do I know as a kid seeing them from the outside? But it looked like we're the only lunatic household with screaming, yelling people, and I don't want this. So when I went.

Matt Gilhooly (19:48)
It's only because you were

only living in that house. You weren't living in all those other houses that probably have the same thing.

Colette Fehr (19:54)
Yes.

Exactly. And they just didn't end up divorced. And then ironically, my parents didn't believe in divorce. So they kept, well, we're staying together for you. And I remember going, get a divorce. Like, don't act like this is for me. You have my permission. In fact, I encourage you. In fact, I'll draw up the paperwork. Like, this is nuts. You two do not belong together. Please stop. So.

This went on for a long time. My mom's a lawyer. So I think she went through a lot of, know, this is my own interpretation, taking out her emotions on through the legal system. My dad really fought for 50-50 custody, which was not the norm back then. And I really applaud him for that because I think especially as a woman having a father who really values you and

and makes you feel like what you have to say and what you think and feel is important goes a long way. So I always felt like my dad wants to fight for me. That was a good thing. But all of this leads me to college where I meet my first husband. And he was this very southern waspy, no conflict in the family. I always call it please pass the butterish. Like they'd sit at the table and nobody ever had a bad facial expression or a crossword.

Matt Gilhooly (20:58)
Mm-hmm.

Colette Fehr (21:19)
You know, now looking back, even though my family was flawed, there are also real people, really, really good-hearted, messy people. And I'm not saying my parents should have been so reactive when I was around to hear, but there was more acknowledgement of stuff. And I thought of this WASPy, we're not going to talk about anything, as the ideal. And I didn't really understand that they were avoiding.

All of this is to say that I thought this was the ticket to my perfect life. And we got married six years after we started dating, never had had a single argument. And then this life shift moment for me was after I had my first daughter, Charlotte, where I had kind of become, first of all, it's ironic, my last name was Jones in that marriage. And I had become the Joneses.

with from the outside looking in, it was very much all this individuality. I mean, if you still talk to me, I was the same as I am now, but from the outside looking in, was very, you know, big house, picket fence, Labrador retrievers. Yeah, that whole gross like cookie cutter thing. Yeah, yeah. And we never argued. So I thought this is great. Everyone thought we were the perfect couple, but there was no...

Matt Gilhooly (22:31)
Picture perfect.

hallmark.

Colette Fehr (22:45)
depth of emotional connection. And I didn't realize what a people pleaser I was because I thought I had this like feisty personality. But when it came to anything that would rock the boat or make waves with him, I was like, nope. And I didn't get good responses if I tried to say anything even indirectly. So I just started to suppress and I call it good girl itis, right? Like that it's

as a woman especially, even in 2026, there's still this idea that like, you put your needs last and you put a smile on. And I was doing all that that I don't even really believe in in some ways as a kid, but always thought was an ideal. And after I had my daughter, both almost died in childbirth. It was really bad. And I had really bad postpartum anxiety, which is an offshoot of postpartum depression.

No one was talking about it. And I just could no longer pretend to be this surface, know, Jones bot. And I was drowning in hormones, anxiousness about my baby. I was a very young mom. had all kinds of physical complications after the labor. It was just really, really difficult. And that's when I realized, wow.

Nobody, again, there was no social media. So I didn't know anything about attachment science or connection. I didn't know that that was a normal thing to want to feel emotionally close to your partner. I really didn't. just. Yes. Yes, exactly. And I remember sitting there one day and I write about this in my book too, because I'll never forget it was an epiphanous moment where Charlotte's three weeks old.

Matt Gilhooly (24:14)
Yeah.

You just thought you had the picture and that was all you needed.

Colette Fehr (24:41)
And I have like milk oozing out all over my shirt, which is just so like alien feeling in a way that your body is suddenly this like unknown territory that's betraying you, right? Like my boobs are like triple G. They're leaking everywhere. I will spare you the gory details of what happened to my genital region, but it was not good. So that's a mess. Yes, yes.

Matt Gilhooly (25:08)
Thank you. We can imagine.

Wherever we want to take it, we can imagine.

Colette Fehr (25:13)
Let

your mind run wild. Whatever you're imagining, it was worse. So all that is happening physically. And then I'm just crying like tears are streaming down my face. And I'm listening like I'm so nervous that she's going to suffocate on the bumper in her crib. Mind you, nothing's wrong. But that's how strung out I am. And my husband sitting next to me with his

Matt Gilhooly (25:15)
because it's probably correct. great.

Colette Fehr (25:37)
feet up on the coffee table, Tiger Woods on the golf channel, sipping a glass of wine, and he's like, chuckling. And I chill, and I remember looking at him and feeling and seeing where I was and thinking, we are not even on the same planet. Like, there's no attunement here. There's no connection. And I remember realizing, like, I need more.

Matt Gilhooly (25:46)
Just chill.

Colette Fehr (26:06)
I need emotional connection. I need to be able to turn to a partner for comfort and emotional support. I didn't know how to express myself back then or communicate in any way, but I knew that something had to change and that there was something missing that I didn't even have the language for yet. And that would be the beginning of what led to a long painful transformation.

Matt Gilhooly (26:31)
Yeah, it's, I would say I hate to say it, but I think your experience is something that a lot of people could relate to. I think that there were a lot of young women growing up picturing this fairy tale life and that what you see, if everything looks perfect, that means everything is perfect. And so we just attached to that as humans. But

you know, thinking back on that, do you remember before the that moment, like in the day to day before you had your child, do you remember moments of happiness? Or do you think that there were moments in which you felt happy because you thought you should have felt happy about the situation?

Colette Fehr (27:19)
It's a great question. I think there were moments of genuine happiness, but I think there were peppered by moments of emotional disconnection or moments of vulnerability or attempts to maybe even think about

being vulnerable in a way. It's one thing to be vulnerable and open as a human. It's another thing in the pocket of a romantic relationship to admit when you feel insecure or scared of rejection or abandonment, which we all are on some level. And I think there were moments where some of that maybe bubbled up. And the responses I got felt

very, very dismissive and rejecting to me. And those moments would trouble me deeply and hurt me, but I couldn't make sense of them. And I didn't really want to tango with what.

they meant on an intuitive level. So the pain would subside and it would go back into the, know, just kind of stuff it down and carry on with the surface life. you can go through years of, you know, we, my ex-husband was very successful at a young age. And I went right from being.

One thing I was very lucky for in my early life is my parents had the means to provide a very nice life for me. And I was a hard worker and a good student, but I really didn't have a lot of real world reality testing in a way, because I went right from my parents into, I got married at 24, just barely out of college, engaged at 23. And even though I had a good job, had I been living on my own, I wouldn't have been,

Matt Gilhooly (28:50)
Mm-hmm.

Colette Fehr (29:06)
earning 10 % of what my ex-husband was. So, you know, it's kind of this, now we're getting engaged. And then it's about that. And now we're planning a wedding. And now we bought a house. And now we're having kids. And so there's a lot of joy that also comes from, we're going on a cool vacation. We're decorating the nursery. So there were moments where I would realize something's missing, but

as quickly as possible, would just bury it and go back into the things that could make me happy.

Matt Gilhooly (29:40)
the performing mode to and what other people see of you can also bring some kind of false happiness or maybe some happiness. Just other people are like, wow, your life looks perfect. And you're like, yes, I did it. But at the same time, you're like, I did it. But you know, and I also think of the other side of the coin, and this is just me guessing, obviously, that your ex husband probably learned from his family and learned that

Colette Fehr (29:42)
Yeah.

Yes. Yes!

Matt Gilhooly (30:10)
that was how you treat your wife, that is how you live your life as a husband, you know, kind of thing. And then, and it's not to, to excuse anything, because we're all our own people, and we can all make our own choices. But you almost like me as a stranger feel bad for him and all the things that maybe he missed out on because he didn't have that awareness to be able to offer a space in which you could be

vulnerable to him and work things out together as couples should do. You know, and so you always think of that part too of how conditioned we as humans can be from where we grew up, how we grew up, or even the whole idea of like epigenetics and how, you know, our extended relatives, something embedded in their DNA. And now here we are.

thank you grandma for the anxiety that you have instilled in me because of your upbringing. know, those things, it always makes me think of that, you know, as much as we want to claim that we are these independent beings, sometimes we get wrapped up in the conditioning that we had.

Colette Fehr (31:21)
for sure. And it's so unconscious. Of course, this comes up all the time in therapy. And you're spot on. And in fact, we had a really cool moment just a couple of years ago. We got divorced very abruptly a few years after this time, this moment that I just shared with you, my first husband and I, and then we didn't really have a lot of closure. He quickly got remarried and is very happily married, by the way. And I've been married for

Matt Gilhooly (31:25)
yeah.

Colette Fehr (31:45)
more than 10 years now, just over 10 years. So all's well that ends well, but we never really had a lot of discussion or processing. And at my younger daughter's 21st birthday, we were all together for dinner with all of her friends and the adults were at one end of the table. And it just so happened that there was a moment that my husband wasn't there and his wife was outside and we had all been talking very openly. We had a couple of bottles of wine and somehow

our divorce came up and...

You know, I shared with him that the real thing for me was that this absence of emotional connection and that times that now granted, I didn't know how to communicate properly the way I know now. And so I have to take responsibility for that part. But the times that I would try to share, I just felt so dismissed. It was so hurtful to me. And he was really able to hear it. And he said, and his parents are great people. I keep in touch with them.

I love them. They're a product of their generation. It's a totally different time. And he said, know, Colette, you know how I grew up. Like you saw my family. I didn't know how to deal with emotions. It was like a hot potato. He's like, I've grown a lot since then, too. And I can really see how, you know, I thought I provided for you. I gave you everything. I thought I was a great husband. And I am such an emotional and emotive person.

Matt Gilhooly (32:49)
Hmm

Colette Fehr (33:16)
And I see it as a couples therapist. A lot of people are really uncomfortable. They don't know how to handle emotion. So he was able to acknowledge exactly what you're saying. And we've both grown a lot since then. So I think in the end, it's really a success story, even though we got divorced. But it led to this mission for me of I didn't set out for this, but

Matt Gilhooly (33:31)
now.

Colette Fehr (33:45)
of becoming a couples therapist, because we had a terrible experience in marriage counseling right before our divorce with somebody who wasn't properly trained, really did more harm than good. Another moment where I could feel something wasn't right, but I didn't know anything about psychology or marriage counseling. I just could feel like this therapist, this isn't good, what's happening here. And we were already pretty far gone, but that experience and the accumulation of this

lack of emotional attunement, lack of connection, the good girl thing that I was really struggling with and all that people pleasing. All of that motivated me after my divorce. My kids were two and four to go back to graduate school here in Winter Park at Rollins and become a really good, highly trained couples therapist who could help people whether they get divorced or stay married and that's up to them, but could help people really learn how to

attune to emotions, be more vulnerable, be assertive, and get their needs met by expressing themselves in a way that can be heard. So it's led to a beautiful and very rich mission in my life.

Matt Gilhooly (34:58)
Yeah, do you remember what, when it popped into your head that you wanted to do that? Like, was there something that I know you said it was a bad experience, but was there like a moment where you were like, let's go Rollins.

Colette Fehr (35:10)
Yeah. And you know what? This is where life is so funny. And I know you know this because your whole show is on this. And this has been such a thing in your own life, too, from what you shared with me. But there are sometimes those crystallized moments that maybe you've been thinking about it, or it's been percolating or building. But it can be a random little moment. And for me, it was a guy I dated very briefly after my divorce.

wasn't particularly a great relationship or anyone that I was going to end up with. Not a bad guy. You know, we're on good terms, but

I almost feel like he was in my life for this reason. I remember him, I knew nothing about the Rollins counseling program. And I was having a conversation with his mother and sister. We only dated for a couple months, but about their lives and I was giving them feedback, not even advice, but just listening and sharing. And after that, he goes, know,

you I didn't like my job I was working in marketing I'm like a terrible marketer so it wasn't a good fit and it wasn't a good boss and it wasn't friendly to an environment that was friendly to a single mom like if I had to go get my kids because they were sick she was like mad at me it was bad so he was like look you don't like your job you've been unhappy anyway

you really should be a therapist. And I was like, well, I've actually been thinking about that. And he was like, well, Rollins has this amazing counseling program. You should apply. And I was like, maybe. And then 2008 hit. And he had planted that seed. And this marketing firm I worked for was very hospitality and tourism driven. We live in central Florida, the land of the theme park.

I didn't get let go, but every person from my company was getting let go. And this boyfriend had just said to me, he literally showed me the website and was like, you need to do this program. And the universe conspired. And I was like, you know what, I'm going to apply. I've been thinking about it since that experience in marriage counseling. And here I was like maybe two years later and everything came together.

Matt Gilhooly (37:33)
Yeah. And to your point, like maybe that's why he was in your life and why some people enter our lives and are only here for a little bit of time to kind of introduce us to something or open our eyes in ways that maybe could be negative, you know, and learn from those experiences as well. I think that's, I think it's beautiful. And it's, it's kind of, did it feel like you were taking the reins more than?

you know, prior experiences, I would imagine, at least for me going into college at 18, it was just like, that was the next thing to do. It wasn't like, I'm going to college and I'm, this is what I'm going to do with it. It was more just like, you know, 13th grade, essentially, for me. So did it feel like you were taking control of your own life and making your decisions in that way?

Colette Fehr (38:17)
Right, right.

Yeah, definitely. You know, it's funny though. know how you like, like, God is laughing while you're making plans, as they say, right? You know, I think I thought, again, this husband, this no arguing, I'm going to create the perfect life. I'm going to be like those families that don't fight. And I had very hard core in my mind. I wanted to be a writer when I went to college. And I did my whole college career.

toward being in the magazine business in New York. That was the heyday of the magazine business, being glamorous. I wanted to work for Conde Nast Traveler. I did internships every summer. I worked for Rolling Stone, the fashion editor there. My job was to schlep the clothes that the celebrities wore on the photo shoots and send them back to Dolce & Gabbana. But it was super glamorous.

environment, even though my job sucked, I worked for Times Mirror. I I did everything thinking, I know what I'm doing. I have a plan. And then of course, none of that happened because I mean, it happened briefly. I worked in the magazine business for a second after college. Then I quit everything to get married and moved down here. I couldn't really find my footing in a job that fit.

And so because I didn't have a job that was that rewarding and my ex-husband was making a lot of money and didn't really take my salary that seriously, he was like, just quit, you're gonna be a mom anyway. So all of this then I snowball from feeling like I'm in control and have a plan to having no plan, getting married, getting divorced, raising kids on my own, not what I thought was going to happen. In fact, I was sure I would.

never get divorced under any circumstances back to that intergenerational transmission of patterns. And so yeah, then I taught English at a high school here. I got this marketing job. Nothing felt right. I didn't know what, where to put myself or what made sense. And yet all these little moments, like I was the person in the family that

Matt Gilhooly (40:14)
Mm-hmm.

Colette Fehr (40:36)
diffused my father and mother, I was always the one people came to in moments of distress. And, you know, so in a way when this guy and these real estate conditions, the global economy of 2008, when all of that came together, it was like, oh, this has always made sense. And I did feel back at the helm of my life for the first time in a long time, even though I was also scared of

You know, I don't know what this is gonna be or if I'll be able to make enough money to support myself, but it felt right. And I felt like I was finally being more intentional in driving the bus.

Matt Gilhooly (41:18)
Yeah, no, I think it's beautiful. think there's also like my heart is a little bit fearful of this journey for you as well because you sign up for something like that. You think, you know, you can be good at that, but then you have to be good at that because you're holding people's lives, right? Essentially, I mean, you're, you're guiding people, which you had a terrible experience. You don't want to show up like that person.

Do you have a lot of imposter

syndrome when you do your first session or when you're on your own? What is that part of you? What does that teach you about you?

Colette Fehr (41:50)
my god.

my God.

Yes, yes, yes, yes on steroids. So I think the imposter syndrome is really strong. mean, a lot of people struggle with that in so many different roles, but for a new therapist, it's really hard. And even as I wanted to do this, becoming a therapist and in particular, really specializing in couples therapy, it's a totally different animal and it's a really hard job. I spent six years after four years in graduate school and six years after graduate

school intensively continuing to rigorously train in couples therapy. Because you're really working within the moment reactivity, people's protection coming up, people's deepest pain points getting pushed on by their partner. So you really at sometimes you feel like this little like five year old dressed up like they're looking at me, right? Even though you know what you're doing, it's it's such a wild live wire.

situation and people who are hurting and they're looking to you to help them make sense of what they're experiencing. And the whole process is really ultimately about helping people regulate themselves emotionally and send clear signals to one another.

So while it sounds simple and now I really know what I'm doing, because I'm almost 15 years into the job and I do this all day every day, it's still hard, but I definitely don't feel imposter syndrome anymore. I did for a long time and I look back on it, it was not pleasant. There was a lot of self doubt or moments of like, my gosh, maybe I've got this. And then the next session.

You're like, my god, that went totally sideways. Or people are saying, my god, we're spending all this time and money and we're not getting better. And you don't have enough time in the saddle to realize you're not totally in control of that. You can only guide people on a process. And ultimately, they have to choose to make these changes. But I would feel enormous, probably too much responsibility for saving everyone's marriage.

And it took me a long time to work through that.

Matt Gilhooly (44:06)
Yeah, I would imagine that, again, here's me assuming that your profession, the more reps you get, like the more sessions you do, the more you learn about what works, what doesn't work about yourself, how you react as the practitioner. I would imagine that the longer you go, I'm sure there's a case where somebody goes too long, right? And they're stuck. But I think the longer you go, the better you get. Do you feel that way?

Colette Fehr (44:34)
Yeah, yeah, definitely with couples therapy too. Although, if you're not really learning, couples therapy is something where you need a model. There are certain, like I do a kind of couples therapy called emotionally focused couples therapy, which is the gold standard. It's got the most efficacy of any model, but you need a process. It doesn't mean you stick to it every minute, but if you're not really trained in a, this is how we organize the work.

and you're just kind of winging it session to session and you just continue to replicate that, which is where a lot of people go into what I consider unethical, but very ubiquitous practice because all you have to do is be a licensed therapist to work with couples and the average lay person. So for all you guys listening, if you ever go to couples therapy, make sure you get a therapist, ask a therapist.

How much do you work with couples? What percentage of your practice is couples? Are you trained in a specific couples therapy model? I mean, those are just good questions to ask because obviously you want to find someone who's a personality fit, but you need a therapist who has that kind of training or you're all going to be lost in a sea. And if you just do that, even if you do that for years, you're probably going to do a lot of unintentional.

damage. Now if you're following a model, it takes a long time to get good at it, especially since all these things we've been talking about, what people witness as kids, the wounds they have, the traumas we have, even though, even if we've healed and done a lot of work, this isn't reacting and relating to other people in an intimate relationship. A romantic relationship is the most important one we have. That's going to push on

every button and activate all of our survival strategies. And when that's coming at you in the room, you know, have to really know how to work with that in a way that is validating and honoring of someone's experience, but also begins to help them make sense of it, to allow them some space to start to regulate, which can't always happen immediately before they're firing bullets at their partner from that dysregulated state. So

Definitely you need a lot of reps, but you need to know what the hell you're doing. And even with all of that, it's still really hard.

Matt Gilhooly (47:05)
Yeah, I would imagine. having this career now and saying all this conversation that we've had, you've said, you know, that curiosity that, that sometimes too vulnerable, but I don't believe that, experience, you know, that has always been the through line for you. What has this like, what's different about you now in your heart and soul compared to

the Colette that was sitting on the couch while your husband was watching Tiger Woods that day? Like what do you think is most different about you and how you show up?

Colette Fehr (47:42)
so many things. So first, being a therapist really helps you see the, and we talked about this, but how we're all struggling with the same things. Like those core themes are fears, our doubts, our insecurities. They're so similar. So it really, my clients have impacted me and sitting in the therapy chair in terms of making me realize, like for example,

I'm now a professional speaker. Like I do keynote speaking, I've done a TEDx talk. I am very confident in what I know and my ability to give a good talk. And yet at the same time, I have a very sensitively wired limbic system. So I go through terrible, terrible public speaking agony.

It's better now that I've done it a lot, but I will always getting up on a stage in front of an audience. I will always have that survival. my God, I'm in front of the herd. I could be judged, right? This is an old evolutionary thing that if you're cast out by society, you will die. So a lot of that's why so many people are afraid of it. I now know that, you I would have probably younger Collette. I would judge myself for, like why am I more confident? I don't lack.

confidence. It's just my survival system, right? Or I would think, why am I so emotional? Why can't I be more like these like robot blonde girls I go to school with who don't see him that emotional and right there cool, right? They don't have seven sisters. And now I'm like, you know what, I having these emotions is the best part of me having the ability to can I really like people like I really like

Matt Gilhooly (49:16)
and don't have seven sisters.

Mm-hmm.

Colette Fehr (49:31)
people, but I no longer, this is the difference. I like myself. I think there was a yes, and I'm accepting of myself. And I think I've shifted from a more self-critical in order to motivate, which is very common because I really wasn't criticized as a child. I got to give my parents props on that. Even when I put the tights on my head, they were like, okay, this is her. They were very accepting and

Matt Gilhooly (49:36)
I was just gonna say that.

Should have just let you grow

your hair. Would have looked less silly.

Colette Fehr (50:01)
I know, that's what I've said to my mom. What is your problem?

But they were very like, Collette, you're so smart, you're so great. They were very loving in that way, but still, we can be so critical. Now I'm really not critical of myself. I've learned self-compassion. I've learned the power of that through being a therapist, that...

When I'm struggling and I can feel my mind wanting to go, why did you do it that way? Or, you know, I'm really aware of it and I really talk to my inner child and I say self-loving things like this is a moment of pain. You know, other people are going through the same thing all around the world right now, somewhere in the world, someone else feels like they embarrassed themselves or.

they messed up in a talk or a therapy session didn't go great or, you know, I pitched my book to some like Oprah and she didn't respond to me even though I reached out 50 times. I know, right? But you know, it's just so human to feel hurt and disappointed or compare ourselves. Now I have the context to know we all deal with those things and I'm able to really just

Matt Gilhooly (51:01)
Come on, Oprah.

Colette Fehr (51:19)
allow myself to feel what I feel and I really feel like a genuine self-love and I don't think I would have gotten there had I not suffered through a difficult marriage and divorce and become a therapist.

Matt Gilhooly (51:33)
Yeah.

Yeah, I say something similar about my own experience. You my mom was killed in an accident when I was eight and I struggled for 20 plus years to like figure out grief and how do I, why am I such a hot mess? And I had a therapist, she helped me and what I've realized since in the last like 20 years, I don't know how old I am now, I'm like making myself 50 or something. The last like 15 years, I've realized the self-awareness piece is so key.

And what I mean by that is now, if I have moments, because I'm a human, I will have sad or depressive like moments and things will happen. Now I know to acknowledge that. I'm aware of what's happening. I acknowledge that it's happening. I acknowledge that I have the tools to make it through this. This is not forever. This is just a moment in time. And it was really that unlock and it's kind of what you're describing of this like self-aware.

you had it in you all along, but now you flip the script and you've seen it differently and you can process it in different ways. And I think that's what I see a lot from people on this show too, is just that is part of their transition into the new version of themselves is that they have more self-awareness, I guess is probably the easiest way to say it. And that comes with self-love, that comes with self-acceptance, that comes with all the pieces that maybe they didn't have before.

So I definitely resonate with that comment in a slightly parallel way.

Colette Fehr (53:06)
Yeah, yeah. I mean,

I think also when you hear so many people...

You see them, the context of their life, and you really see and hear in therapy everything under the hood, right? Once you develop that trust and rapport and people really share with you and you're hearing the same things and you're seeing these people who are wonderful and they're successful and you hear what their inner voice is telling them, these lies, because our brains run negative. It's another survival thing. So this is what it does. And if you were criticized or invalidated or neglected as

Matt Gilhooly (53:18)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Colette Fehr (53:41)
child, then that's going to be even stronger. And when you see how often people do that and the

Disconnect between who they are and how they are and how you perceive them and what they're telling themselves in their moments of despair You really realize wow, this is just what our minds do and we have to hold those stories lightly It's the same thing in relationships Back to why I wrote this book like there's so many things that are just it's just reactivity It's brain science. It's dysregulation. It's survival mode and if we can understand

with self-awareness like you're saying that this is what is going to happen if you're in a close relationship even a friendship a colleague but certainly a partner of any kind

They are gonna push on the raw spot inside of you at that level of intimacy. It is not are you gonna get triggered, it's how are you gonna handle those triggers when they come up all the time. That's what good couples therapy is doing, is teaching you how to recognize, handle your triggers, be compassionate toward yourself. I have a whole process I developed called self-connected communication.

Matt Gilhooly (54:30)
Mm-hmm.

Colette Fehr (54:54)
where you pause first to really process, regulate yourself, bring awareness, bring compassion and curiosity so that by the time you go to a partner, you're able to really be clear.

about what you're feeling. You're not blaming or accusing. You're acknowledging, I have a story in my head. It feels like the truth, but I know it may not be as true as my mind thinks it is. This is what I'm telling myself, but here's what I need. And you're able to ask for comfort, reassurance, support, behavior change, whatever it is. Doesn't mean it happens, but that gives you the best chance possible to be heard. And most importantly,

This is really what I'm so excited about and committed to, helping every person know their voice matters, know their emotional needs, are normal and human and valid and deserve to be expressed and really find the ability within themselves to do that. Because that's when life, when we're self honoring, that's when life gets good.

Matt Gilhooly (55:58)
Mm hmm.

Yeah. Would you say that that is kind of if someone were to ask you what you hope people get take away from your book? Is that kind of the crux of of the whole purpose of The Cost of Quiet?

Colette Fehr (56:12)
Yeah, know, quiet, yes, quiet is really a euphemism for all the ways we avoid the conversations we should be having. And sometimes I point out in the book, the top 10 avoidant behaviors, they're not all quiet sounding, not everyone shuts down or self silences. A lot of people do. A lot of people are very communicative in every area of their life. They're assertive, I mean, I have trial attorneys. They're certainly not afraid of conflict, but when it comes to a partner,

and the stakes are high and I could push this person away or this won't go anywhere anyway, then they start to lose their voice or we're critical and blaming instead of being clear and vulnerable. yes, this is all about you've got to learn the hallmark of adult emotional maturity is learning how to regulate yourself and communicate on behalf of your needs. And that means saying things like,

this is really hard to bring up, I'm not good at this, these conversations make me uncomfortable, but this relationship's really important to me, so I'd like to share something with you if you're willing to listen, and then you talk about your inner experience, not what the other person's doing wrong.

Matt Gilhooly (57:28)
Yeah. Do you ever envision

yourself saying those things to your ex-husband in that, in those time periods and what, how things? Yeah. But you wouldn't be here, you know, like you wouldn't be doing what you're doing. You wouldn't be helping. mean, probably like I'm just making these assumptions here. So if would you, well, still can still opportunity, still opportunities for you. If would you say that?

Colette Fehr (57:35)
Yes, and I wish I had.

No.

I I think I could be a total alcoholic, like chain smoking, like a desperate housewife.

Matt Gilhooly (57:57)
Or what would you say if you could whisper in Colette's ear on that couch when you were spiraling and you're inside, probably in quiet.

Colette Fehr (58:06)
Yeah, I would say.

you know, this, your voice deserves to be heard. There is no guarantee. And I will never know if it would have made a difference. I actually suspect it might not have, but I'll never know. And I know that, and I'm at peace with how it ended because I have wonderful kids, I have a wonderful career. I would not be doing this had that not happened. And my career is really rewarding. Helping people is

It's a very purposeful life, even though it's hard work. But I would tell that younger me, hey, what you're feeling is normal. It's valid. It deserves to be spoken. And it will hurt and be disappointing if you put yourself out there and your need isn't met. But it hurts far more to abandon yourself and have regrets.

Matt Gilhooly (59:02)
mean, it already hurt, right? You were already hurting from not doing it. So get it out, right? Yeah.

Colette Fehr (59:07)
Exactly. And you know

what, that's what people say. Can I just say this one thing? People tell me over and over again in therapy, like I hear this so much. I try to address it in the book, but I swear to you, it's so hard to get this through to people. I will hear so often that like, you know, I can't say it because it'll create a problem or they won't react well. And really then you unpack it a little further and

Matt Gilhooly (59:12)
Yeah, of course.

Colette Fehr (59:37)
It's really just the fear of vulnerability. I call it the siren song of avoidance, that your mind is telling you all the reasons you can't communicate, that it's the other person's fault, but it's really the fear of being vulnerable. And people will tell me finally in therapy down deeper, well, it feels almost worse if I actually say what I need and then it's not met.

And that's the part I'm trying to change because once you start saying what you need and advocating for yourself and you warm up the muscle to do it and you realize, give a whole process for this in therapy in my book that makes it much easier. Once you start to do it, like I can't imagine life in any other way. My husband will joke like, wow, I wonder what it would be like to meet people pleasing Colette. I'm like, she's dead, honey. You missed her.

Matt Gilhooly (1:00:28)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Colette Fehr (1:00:31)
by like a good decade.

Matt Gilhooly (1:00:33)
And you're like, you're

lucky because you don't know her, right? Well, I mean, and I think there is, I don't know. I think part of this whole thing of all of us having this little bit of this fear of vulnerability, fear of abandonment, all these things seem to be predicated on the fact that we're, we all seem to think, yes, we would want this, but that all relationships should be forever. Right? And so we,

Colette Fehr (1:00:36)
Exactly.

Matt Gilhooly (1:01:03)
give parts of ourselves away because we don't want that to end and we think that's the better choice when maybe it's not. Maybe fully owning our own experiences and our own feelings and relationships come and go, maybe that's a better life. I don't know.

Colette Fehr (1:01:03)
I love that you brought that up.

I agree with that 100%. No matter what, we're relational beings. We are meant to have safe, secure relationships with close, reliable others. Doesn't have to be romantic. But we know all the research supports the Harvard study and adult development, the single predictive factor of a long, healthy life is having close, deeply connected relationships.

But even as that's wired into us, the most important relationship you have is the one you have with yourself. And that's the place you gotta honor that first.

Matt Gilhooly (1:01:59)
Yeah, no one's taught

that. But maybe they can connect with you and I know that's what I'm saying. That's my segue into telling people that they should reach out to you and connect with you and read your book. Like what's the best way to find Colette? I know that this is your profession. So you don't want people dumping their stories on you. But at the same time, I do encourage people through these episodes that if

Colette Fehr (1:02:03)
But I'm trying to change that, Matt. That's my life.

Matt Gilhooly (1:02:25)
something the guest says resonates with them, like reach out and just mention that to them. So like, what's the best way to find you or if they want to tell you those things.

Colette Fehr (1:02:32)
I would love that.

I would love that and I almost feel like you can't not find me. So first of all, my book, The Cost of Quiet is available wherever books are sold. You can also go to thecostofquiet.com to make it easy or of course Amazon, Barnes & Noble, local independent bookstores, support your bookstores. You can get it on my website, colettejannfair.com. I'm very active on Instagram. I'm on TikTok, even though I haven't figured that out. My handle is at colettejannfair and I also write a really

great sub stack every week called secrets from a therapist, where I share a lot of relationship insight and really tools for all of this. give a lot of value. It's free. So if you're not on sub stack, pop on there just sub stack.com. And if you put in my name or secrets from a therapist, you'll find my newsletter, it's got a lot of stuff that will help you. And again, that's free.

Matt Gilhooly (1:03:27)
Awesome. Yeah, we'll put the links in the show notes. think it's, make it easy for everyone to click along and do it, but I really encourage someone that maybe part of Colette's story made you, gave you some validation in your own experience or how you felt or made you want to take the step that you have been contemplating for a while, reach out to her and let her know. I think there's so much power in sharing our stories with other people, sometimes for the first time or saying it out loud. You know this.

Colette Fehr (1:03:49)
That would be great.

Matt Gilhooly (1:03:56)
this effect of saying things out loud really clears the way for things to kind of move forward. So, know, Collette, I didn't know you an hour and a half ago, and I feel like I know so much about you. So thank you for just coming on this life shift journey with me. It's always such a pleasure to get to talk to strangers and then become closer in this way.

Colette Fehr (1:04:18)
I really appreciate it. It's been a pleasure and you're in my backyard. So I hope we get to meet in real life sometime soon.

Matt Gilhooly (1:04:25)
Yeah, well, not for sushi. We talked about that before. So probably have to have to be for some coffee or tea or something along those lines. So well, thank you again for being a part of this. And thank you everyone for listening. I will be back next week with a brand new episode. And by the way, I've gone to two episodes a week. So I guess I'll be back in a couple days with a new episode. Thanks again, Collette. Talk to you soon.

Colette Fehr (1:04:29)

Sounds great.